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foreign

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hello good morning and welcome my name

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is Dan Evans and as the designated

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federal official for NASA's unidentified

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anomalous phenomena independent study

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team I'd like to call this meeting to

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order and introduce the panelists in the

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back row we have Nadia Drake Paula Bon

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Tempe Federica Bianco David grinspoon

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Carlin toner Josh simata and Jennifer

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Buss well in the front row we have

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Walter Scott Warren Randolph Reggie

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Brothers Shelley Wright

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Scott Kelly

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Anna Maria Brea Mike gold and David

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spurgle who serves as chair of the team

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I have a few opening remarks but to

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begin I'd like to start with the

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following

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first I'd like to pay tribute to the

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life of retired Air Force Master

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Sergeant Sam Sato who's being laid to

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rest at Arlington National Cemetery

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today

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following his active duty service Sam

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served as the intelligence collection

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manager for the National Intelligence

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manager for Aviation where he played a

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critical role in UAP analysis all of us

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at Nasa offer our condolences to Sam's

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family friends and colleagues

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second I'd like to take this opportunity

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to express my profound gratitude to our

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distinguished panel of experts for their

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unwavering commitment and dedication

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happening to note that several of them

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have been subjected to online abuse due

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to their decision to participate on this

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panel a NASA security team is actively

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addressing this issue we at Nasa are

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acutely aware of the considerable public

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interest in UAP

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however it's critical to understand any

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form of harassment towards our panelists

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only serves to detract from the

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scientific process which requires an

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environment of respect and openness

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now every member of our team is a

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recognized Authority in their respective

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field and they have our unequivocal

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support

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NASA stands in solidarity with them

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advocating for a respectful discourse

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that befits their expertise and the

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significance of their work thanks

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now in recent years the subjects of

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unidentified aerial phenomena nowadays

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termed unidentified anomalous phenomena

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or uaps has captured the attention of

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the public the scientific community and

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the government alike and it's now our

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Collective responsibility to investigate

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these incurrences with the rigorous

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scientific scrutiny that they deserve

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NASA administrator sent us a Bill Nelson

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believes that understanding uaps is

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vital for several reasons which is why

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he directed this study

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first and foremost it provides an

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opportunity for us to expand our

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understanding of the world around us

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as an organization dedicated to

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exploring the unknown this work is in

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our DNA

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secondly this study aims to enhance

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situational awareness the presence of

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uaps raises concerns about the safety of

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our skies and it's this nation's

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obligation to determine whether these

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phenomena boast any potential risks to

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airspace safety

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by understanding the nature of uaps we

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can ensure that our skies remain a safe

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space for all

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in order to achieve these goals it is

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crucial that we employ a scientific lens

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for our UAP work it's precisely this

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rigorous evidence-based approach that

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allows one to separate facts from

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fiction

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this team is comprised of experts from

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various disciplines which allows them to

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approach this work from multiple

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perspective and we have greatly

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benefited from that Collective expertise

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now why do we value a scientific

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approach it's because science is built

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on evidence it thrives on scrutiny it

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demands reproduce

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reproducibility Reaper I can't sorry and

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above all objectivity when we approach

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uaps from a scientific perspective we do

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not come in with an agenda we come in

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needing a roadmap indeed the primary

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objective of this incredible team of

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experts is not to go back and look at

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grainy footage of uaps but rather to

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give us a roadmap to guide us for future

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analysis and this is the very scientific

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method that NASA holds true to its heart

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scientific research is intended to be

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publicly available and transparent a

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NASA Prides itself on making its data

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and images available to the public to

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learn and explore on their own

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by holding public meetings like this one

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we aim for open and honest dialogue with

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the public we recognize that public

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interest in uaps is high and that the

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demand for answers is strong

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conversations like this one are the

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first step to reducing the stigma

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surrounding UAP reporting

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moreover transparency is essential for

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fostering trust between NASA the public

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and the scientific community

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in order to do things right we must work

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together pulling our resources our

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knowledge and our expertise and by

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maintaining open channels of

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communication we can facilitate

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collaboration encourage the exchange of

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ideas and ensure that our work is as

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robust as possible

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not only that but our commitment to

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openness is in itself a reflection of

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NASA's commitment to Scientific

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integrity

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there's an organization dedicated to the

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pursuit of knowledge it is NASA's

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responsibility to be honest and

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forthright and to follow the science

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and by being transparent in our work we

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uphold our dedication to Scientific

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excellence

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the meeting today represents the first

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deliberative actions that the team has

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taken and so it's important to keep in

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mind that they still have several months

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of work ahead of them their final report

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will be released this summer and we will

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publish it on our website

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NASA believes that the study of

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unidentified anomalous phenomena

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represents an exciting step forward in

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our quest to uncover the mysteries of

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the world around us by embracing a

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scientific lens we ensure that our work

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is rigorous and reliable and by valuing

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transparency and openness we can foster

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trust and collaboration with the public

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simply put this is why we do what we do

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now before I introduce Nikki there are a

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few administrative matters to attend to

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firstly the identified anomalous

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phenomena independent study team has

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been established in accordance with the

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federal advisory committee act known as

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fako its parent committee is the earth

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science advisory committees as such this

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group does not report to the government

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it reports to the earth science advisory

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committee who'll debate the

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recommendations and formally transmit

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this team's report to the government

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next our deliberative committee meetings

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such as this one are open to the public

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and also after this panel was convened

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the National Defense authorization act

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known as the ndaa changed the a in UAP

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to be anomalous

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accordingly this Pal's remit was

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expanded to Encompass not just aerial

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UAP

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date have been in the aerial domain so

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it's fair to say that this panel's focus

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is on the aerial aspect of anomalous

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now in compliance with the fact of

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federal statute four more minutes have

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been taken throughout the meeting today

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and these meetings and these minutes are

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for the public record and hence all

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presentations and discussions and

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comments by the committee members should

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be considered to be on the record

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each member of this UAP study team has

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been appointed because of their specific

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subject matter expertise as individuals

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and hence each member is subject to

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Federal ethics laws

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this category of appointment is called

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special government employees or sges for

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our non-government members and our two

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federal employees

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serve as regular government employees

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known as rges

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the panel all members on this committee

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should remember to recuse themselves if

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a topic comes up in which you have a

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potential conflict of interest between

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your financial interests including those

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of your employer

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and matters that we're discussing and

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then finally panel if you have any

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ethics questions please see me

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separately and if needed I'll put you in

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contact with a NASA ethics attorney

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thanks for bearing with me I'd now like

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to turn to the amazing Dr Nikki Fox

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associate administrator for NASA's

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science Mission directorate over to you

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thank you Dan and thank you to all the

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members of NASA's UAP independent study

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team your selfless dedication to the

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pursuit of knowledge is just so

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commendable and I want to thank you the

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audience for tuning in today to watch

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our first deliberative meeting of NASA's

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independent study team on evaluating and

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categorizing unidentified anomalous

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phenomena

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before I begin though I really do want

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to double down on Dan's words that it is

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really disheartening to hear of the

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harassment that our panelists have faced

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online all because they're studying this

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topic

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NASA stands behind our panelists and we

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do not tolerate abuse harassment only

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leads to further stigmatization of the

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UAP field significantly hindering the

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scientific progress and discouraging

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others to study this important subject

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matter

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your harassment also obstructs the

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Public's right to knowledge our

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panelists are leading experts in the

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scientific Aeronautics and data

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analytics communities we are very lucky

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to have them on board to share their

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invaluable insights to inform NASA on

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what possible data could be collected in

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the future and how it can be collected

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to help us better understand the nature

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of UAP

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the UAP independent study was

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commissioned to create a road map on how

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to use the tools of science to evaluate

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and categorize the nature of uaps going

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forward this roadmap of course will help

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the federal government obtain usable

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data to explain the nature of future

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uaps

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transparency openness and scientific

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Integrity are Pinnacle to NASA's Mission

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they're at the Forefront of this public

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meeting and have been throughout the

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team's seven months on this study

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as Dan noted this is a working meeting

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and so the public will have the

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incredible opportunity to witness the

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process of Science in action

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at Nasa we lead the world in Exploration

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and are committed to rigorous scientific

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inquiry

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the nature of science is to better

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understand the unknown and to do that

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our scientists need data

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right now there is very limited number

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of high quality observations and data

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curation of UAP

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the existing data available from

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eyewitness reports are often modeled and

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cannot provide conclusive evidence that

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00:13:04,550 --> 00:13:02,220
supports UAP recognition and Analysis

286
00:13:06,710 --> 00:13:04,560
additionally an object's background can

287
00:13:09,710 --> 00:13:06,720
complicate the data further and render

288
00:13:11,509 --> 00:13:09,720
it unusable due to Conventional objects

289
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:11,519
that can mimic or overshadow the

290
00:13:16,430 --> 00:13:13,680
phenomena completely such as commercial

291
00:13:20,389 --> 00:13:16,440
aircraft military equipment the weather

292
00:13:22,970 --> 00:13:20,399
and ionospheric phenomena like auroras

293
00:13:24,410 --> 00:13:22,980
this lack of high quality data make it

294
00:13:27,949 --> 00:13:24,420
impossible to draw scientific

295
00:13:30,470 --> 00:13:27,959
conclusions on the nature of UAP

296
00:13:32,210 --> 00:13:30,480
now this team has used unclassified data

297
00:13:34,970 --> 00:13:32,220
from civilian government entities

298
00:13:37,610 --> 00:13:34,980
commercial data and data from other

299
00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:37,620
sources to inform their recommendations

300
00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:40,079
and as downloaded they will be published

301
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:42,240
in a public report that comes out this

302
00:13:45,230 --> 00:13:43,440
summer

303
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:45,240
I want to emphasize that there is really

304
00:13:50,030 --> 00:13:47,519
great benefit to studying unclassified

305
00:13:51,170 --> 00:13:50,040
data rather than classify data for this

306
00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:51,180
study

307
00:13:55,910 --> 00:13:54,000
first unidentified anomalous phenomena

308
00:13:58,430 --> 00:13:55,920
sightings themselves are not classified

309
00:13:59,990 --> 00:13:58,440
it's often the sensor platform that is

310
00:14:00,949 --> 00:14:00,000
classified and you can kind of think of

311
00:14:03,350 --> 00:14:00,959
it

312
00:14:05,389 --> 00:14:03,360
um if a fighter jet took a picture of

313
00:14:07,610 --> 00:14:05,399
the Statue of Liberty then that image

314
00:14:09,410 --> 00:14:07,620
would be classified not because of the

315
00:14:11,389 --> 00:14:09,420
subject in the picture but because of

316
00:14:13,550 --> 00:14:11,399
the sensors on the plane

317
00:14:15,230 --> 00:14:13,560
second unclassified data make it

318
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:15,240
possible for our team to communicate

319
00:14:20,990 --> 00:14:18,000
openly to advance our understanding of

320
00:14:23,090 --> 00:14:21,000
UAP not only with each other but across

321
00:14:24,170 --> 00:14:23,100
the scientific community and to the

322
00:14:26,810 --> 00:14:24,180
public

323
00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:26,820
this ensures a clear and transparent

324
00:14:30,949 --> 00:14:29,040
pipeline of information that can be

325
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:30,959
built upon through the general through

326
00:14:36,829 --> 00:14:34,800
generations to expand our understanding

327
00:14:40,009 --> 00:14:36,839
this study relies on open data

328
00:14:42,470 --> 00:14:40,019
everything we use at Nasa is open and

329
00:14:44,689 --> 00:14:42,480
anyone can look at these records so I

330
00:14:45,850 --> 00:14:44,699
invite you to visit our open data portal

331
00:14:54,290 --> 00:14:45,860
at

332
00:14:57,290 --> 00:14:54,300
and fully accessible to the public

333
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:57,300
additionally please check out data.gov

334
00:15:03,290 --> 00:15:01,199
open slash data for a great overview of

335
00:15:05,569 --> 00:15:03,300
where you can find the archives for our

336
00:15:07,850 --> 00:15:05,579
science and Mission data sites

337
00:15:09,829 --> 00:15:07,860
I am very very much looking forward to

338
00:15:11,810 --> 00:15:09,839
hearing the deliberations put forth

339
00:15:16,370 --> 00:15:11,820
today from our distinguished panel of

340
00:15:20,689 --> 00:15:17,930
um before you go look I just want to

341
00:15:24,410 --> 00:15:20,699
open up to questions let me start with a

342
00:15:26,449 --> 00:15:24,420
question on this on the NASA data

343
00:15:28,910 --> 00:15:26,459
um I think one of the important things

344
00:15:31,550 --> 00:15:28,920
uh that we'll be looking at with other

345
00:15:34,069 --> 00:15:31,560
data sets and events is the data is not

346
00:15:35,689 --> 00:15:34,079
very well calibrated can you say just a

347
00:15:37,189 --> 00:15:35,699
little bit about how NASA goes through

348
00:15:40,970 --> 00:15:37,199
calibrating some of its earth science

349
00:15:42,949 --> 00:15:40,980
data oh yes we very very rigorous um I

350
00:15:44,449 --> 00:15:42,959
mean at all of our data sets not just

351
00:15:46,910 --> 00:15:44,459
earth science go through extremely

352
00:15:49,069 --> 00:15:46,920
rigorous calibration

353
00:15:50,990 --> 00:15:49,079
um we don't release anything until it's

354
00:15:54,050 --> 00:15:51,000
really perfect I mean we have quick look

355
00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:54,060
data that is marked as quick look data

356
00:15:57,470 --> 00:15:55,920
um so you know you can use it to get

357
00:15:59,569 --> 00:15:57,480
preliminary

358
00:16:02,990 --> 00:15:59,579
um findings but wait for the the really

359
00:16:04,069 --> 00:16:03,000
nicely cleaned up data so I uh a lot of

360
00:16:06,530 --> 00:16:04,079
rigorous

361
00:16:09,470 --> 00:16:06,540
um protocol in putting out our data to

362
00:16:14,389 --> 00:16:11,329
do we have any other questions from the

363
00:16:30,590 --> 00:16:17,509
all right thank you so much

364
00:16:35,569 --> 00:16:33,949
hi I'm David spurgle I'm the chair of

365
00:16:37,850 --> 00:16:35,579
the panel

366
00:16:39,710 --> 00:16:37,860
and when I look at our chart we have a

367
00:16:43,009 --> 00:16:39,720
lengthy charge but the high level

368
00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:43,019
summary of it is how can NASA contribute

369
00:16:49,970 --> 00:16:46,800
to understanding the nature of uaps

370
00:16:52,430 --> 00:16:49,980
and our role here is not to resolve the

371
00:16:54,650 --> 00:16:52,440
nature of these events but rather to

372
00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:54,660
give NASA guidance to provide a road map

373
00:17:00,170 --> 00:16:58,560
of how it can contribute in this area

374
00:17:02,569 --> 00:17:00,180
after

375
00:17:05,929 --> 00:17:02,579
my opening remarks we'll hear from Sean

376
00:17:08,090 --> 00:17:05,939
kirpatrick from the aaro and it's the

377
00:17:10,789 --> 00:17:08,100
aaro that's charged with leading the

378
00:17:12,890 --> 00:17:10,799
whole of government UAP eff effort

379
00:17:14,510 --> 00:17:12,900
and they've already issued some

380
00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:14,520
preliminary reports on some of the

381
00:17:18,530 --> 00:17:15,839
events

382
00:17:21,409 --> 00:17:18,540
NASA's role is to use its unique

383
00:17:24,049 --> 00:17:21,419
capabilities and its role as a civilian

384
00:17:26,510 --> 00:17:24,059
agency interacting with the scientific

385
00:17:28,130 --> 00:17:26,520
community in an open and transparent

386
00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:28,140
manner

387
00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:32,160
and you know as Dr Fox emphasized the

388
00:17:35,930 --> 00:17:34,799
defense and intelligence agency data on

389
00:17:38,570 --> 00:17:35,940
UAP

390
00:17:41,450 --> 00:17:38,580
and I'll often classified primarily

391
00:17:43,250 --> 00:17:41,460
because of how the data is collected not

392
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:43,260
because what's in the data

393
00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:46,080
the camera on an F-35 took a picture of

394
00:17:51,110 --> 00:17:48,480
a bird it's classified

395
00:17:54,289 --> 00:17:51,120
if a spy satellite takes an image of a

396
00:17:55,789 --> 00:17:54,299
balloon and we've had in the news some

397
00:17:58,370 --> 00:17:55,799
balloons recently

398
00:18:01,310 --> 00:17:58,380
that date is classified and that's

399
00:18:05,150 --> 00:18:01,320
because of a desire to not reveal our

400
00:18:07,430 --> 00:18:05,160
technical capabilities to other nations

401
00:18:09,230 --> 00:18:07,440
NASA on the other hand operates in a

402
00:18:10,250 --> 00:18:09,240
mode where it's collecting data in the

403
00:18:12,350 --> 00:18:10,260
open

404
00:18:15,529 --> 00:18:12,360
and the NASA data is available on

405
00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:15,539
websites and as well characterized and

406
00:18:21,710 --> 00:18:18,240
because of NASA being the civilian

407
00:18:23,409 --> 00:18:21,720
agency studying Air and Space it has a

408
00:18:27,049 --> 00:18:23,419
special role to play

409
00:18:29,630 --> 00:18:27,059
and I see our charge primarily as

410
00:18:32,090 --> 00:18:29,640
helping identify for NASA ways that

411
00:18:34,730 --> 00:18:32,100
could play that role and contribute to

412
00:18:36,830 --> 00:18:34,740
understanding

413
00:18:38,390 --> 00:18:36,840
we've gone through a preliminary data

414
00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:38,400
collection stage

415
00:18:42,230 --> 00:18:41,039
and to summarize some of the things that

416
00:18:44,510 --> 00:18:42,240
we've learned

417
00:18:47,570 --> 00:18:44,520
the current data collection efforts

418
00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:47,580
regarding uaps are unsystematic and

419
00:18:53,029 --> 00:18:50,880
fragmented across various agencies often

420
00:18:56,090 --> 00:18:53,039
using instruments uncalibrated for

421
00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:56,100
scientific data collection

422
00:19:00,830 --> 00:18:58,799
and if I think about the data that

423
00:19:02,570 --> 00:19:00,840
people have out there it's in many ways

424
00:19:05,630 --> 00:19:02,580
what we'd like to think of as citizen

425
00:19:07,370 --> 00:19:05,640
science but again it is uncalibrated

426
00:19:11,810 --> 00:19:07,380
Data

427
00:19:14,930 --> 00:19:11,820
um poorly characterized not well curated

428
00:19:17,870 --> 00:19:14,940
and we face looking through this data a

429
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:17,880
significant background a background of

430
00:19:23,810 --> 00:19:20,400
many of these events are commercial

431
00:19:26,630 --> 00:19:23,820
aircraft civilian America militaries up

432
00:19:29,330 --> 00:19:26,640
drones weather and research balloons

433
00:19:33,130 --> 00:19:29,340
military equipment ionospheric

434
00:19:35,630 --> 00:19:33,140
phenomenon we need to characterize how

435
00:19:39,770 --> 00:19:35,640
what the date when the date is taken

436
00:19:41,870 --> 00:19:39,780
when it sees events like this first

437
00:19:44,990 --> 00:19:41,880
the current existing data and eyewitness

438
00:19:46,850 --> 00:19:45,000
reports alone are insufficient to

439
00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:46,860
provide conclusive evidence about the

440
00:19:52,310 --> 00:19:49,200
nature and origin of of every UAP event

441
00:19:55,909 --> 00:19:52,320
they're often uninformative due to lack

442
00:19:58,430 --> 00:19:55,919
of quality control and data curation

443
00:20:01,070 --> 00:19:58,440
to understand UAP better

444
00:20:03,650 --> 00:20:01,080
targeted data collection

445
00:20:05,870 --> 00:20:03,660
thorough data curation and robust

446
00:20:08,350 --> 00:20:05,880
analyzes are needed

447
00:20:11,090 --> 00:20:08,360
such an approach will help to discern

448
00:20:13,310 --> 00:20:11,100
unexplained UAP sightings

449
00:20:16,490 --> 00:20:13,320
but even then there's no guarantee that

450
00:20:18,650 --> 00:20:16,500
all sightings will be explained

451
00:20:20,690 --> 00:20:18,660
another challenge in this area is what

452
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:20,700
we call stigma there's a real stigma

453
00:20:26,450 --> 00:20:23,520
among people reporting events

454
00:20:27,950 --> 00:20:26,460
and despite NASA's extensive efforts to

455
00:20:31,570 --> 00:20:27,960
reduce the stigma

456
00:20:34,909 --> 00:20:31,580
the origin of the uaps remain unclear

457
00:20:36,169 --> 00:20:34,919
and we feel many events remain

458
00:20:38,510 --> 00:20:36,179
unreported

459
00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:38,520
commercial pilots for example are very

460
00:20:44,029 --> 00:20:39,840
reluctant

461
00:20:46,970 --> 00:20:44,039
to report anomalies and one of our goals

462
00:20:48,169 --> 00:20:46,980
in having NASA play a role is to remove

463
00:20:50,330 --> 00:20:48,179
stigma

464
00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:50,340
and

465
00:20:56,330 --> 00:20:53,520
get high quality data

466
00:20:59,270 --> 00:20:56,340
in fact if I were to summarize

467
00:21:03,350 --> 00:20:59,280
in one line what I feel we've learned

468
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:03,360
it's we need high quality data and this

469
00:21:07,990 --> 00:21:05,039
is not some as a

470
00:21:10,970 --> 00:21:08,000
research scientist whose work has been

471
00:21:14,330 --> 00:21:10,980
primarily focused in cosmology

472
00:21:16,490 --> 00:21:14,340
I would say the lesson of my career has

473
00:21:19,010 --> 00:21:16,500
been you want to address important

474
00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:19,020
questions you need high quality data

475
00:21:24,710 --> 00:21:22,320
with well-calibrated instruments

476
00:21:27,169 --> 00:21:24,720
so the let me now

477
00:21:29,330 --> 00:21:27,179
uh introduce the agenda

478
00:21:31,490 --> 00:21:29,340
we're going to hear from a number of

479
00:21:32,690 --> 00:21:31,500
experts who will be presenting up to

480
00:21:37,250 --> 00:21:32,700
lunch

481
00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:37,260
to 12 30.

482
00:21:42,529 --> 00:21:39,600
at 12 30 we'll resume

483
00:21:45,409 --> 00:21:42,539
and we'll have presentations by members

484
00:21:49,130 --> 00:21:45,419
of the panel on some preliminary ideas

485
00:21:50,990 --> 00:21:49,140
for discussion and that will be a period

486
00:21:52,250 --> 00:21:51,000
of time for some open discussion by the

487
00:21:55,130 --> 00:21:52,260
panel

488
00:21:57,409 --> 00:21:55,140
we will then have a q a session based on

489
00:22:00,590 --> 00:21:57,419
questions that have been sent in in

490
00:22:02,090 --> 00:22:00,600
advance to the website and we've curated

491
00:22:04,250 --> 00:22:02,100
those questions and grouped them

492
00:22:06,110 --> 00:22:04,260
together and we'll be going through a

493
00:22:07,850 --> 00:22:06,120
lot of those questions and then we'll

494
00:22:11,750 --> 00:22:07,860
summarize

495
00:22:14,210 --> 00:22:11,760
and then over the subsequent uh couple

496
00:22:17,029 --> 00:22:14,220
months we'll work on putting together

497
00:22:19,490 --> 00:22:17,039
the report and as Dan said we're aiming

498
00:22:22,010 --> 00:22:19,500
to make a public report available we

499
00:22:25,370 --> 00:22:22,020
hope by the end of July

500
00:22:26,649 --> 00:22:25,380
so now let me turn this over to Sean

501
00:22:30,049 --> 00:22:26,659
Uncle Patrick

502
00:22:32,270 --> 00:22:30,059
we'll do a couple q and A's for me okay

503
00:22:34,190 --> 00:22:32,280
from the panel any any questions on the

504
00:22:43,909 --> 00:22:34,200
panel

505
00:22:51,049 --> 00:22:47,270
yeah um so one of the things I think Dr

506
00:22:53,270 --> 00:22:51,059
Fox uh said was looking at the release

507
00:22:56,810 --> 00:22:53,280
of data very important for our study

508
00:22:59,990 --> 00:22:56,820
when it's high quality and you have also

509
00:23:02,270 --> 00:23:00,000
commented that data are not always

510
00:23:04,669 --> 00:23:02,280
perfect when we're doing certain studies

511
00:23:08,029 --> 00:23:04,679
I wonder if you could

512
00:23:10,430 --> 00:23:08,039
um shed some light on the you know the

513
00:23:11,930 --> 00:23:10,440
difference between the application of

514
00:23:15,289 --> 00:23:11,940
certain data to certain scientific

515
00:23:22,970 --> 00:23:19,850
so you know when you look at your camera

516
00:23:24,830 --> 00:23:22,980
your camera is often designed to take an

517
00:23:27,049 --> 00:23:24,840
image in the daytime

518
00:23:28,610 --> 00:23:27,059
and might not be optimized for nighttime

519
00:23:30,890 --> 00:23:28,620
Imaging

520
00:23:33,890 --> 00:23:30,900
or if you take something that

521
00:23:37,610 --> 00:23:33,900
astronomers are very familiar with is we

522
00:23:42,649 --> 00:23:37,620
design our telescopes to work at night

523
00:23:44,330 --> 00:23:42,659
and if the Sun is not even if you're you

524
00:23:46,610 --> 00:23:44,340
know you would never take the Hubble

525
00:23:49,250 --> 00:23:46,620
telescope and point it at the Sun

526
00:23:52,370 --> 00:23:49,260
this would destroy its detectors

527
00:23:54,110 --> 00:23:52,380
not only that if the telescope is

528
00:23:56,870 --> 00:23:54,120
pointing there

529
00:23:59,049 --> 00:23:56,880
and the Sun is over there even though

530
00:24:01,789 --> 00:23:59,059
you're not looking at the sun

531
00:24:04,450 --> 00:24:01,799
Reflections off of the Optics will

532
00:24:07,490 --> 00:24:04,460
produce what we call ghosting

533
00:24:10,970 --> 00:24:07,500
and that kind of ghosting

534
00:24:13,730 --> 00:24:10,980
gets produces some very strange images

535
00:24:15,890 --> 00:24:13,740
and this you know one of the many things

536
00:24:19,490 --> 00:24:15,900
we need to worry about when we see

537
00:24:21,770 --> 00:24:19,500
unusual things taken from a camera

538
00:24:22,850 --> 00:24:21,780
is even if you're pointing the camera

539
00:24:27,770 --> 00:24:22,860
there

540
00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:27,780
those kinds of anomalies degrade the

541
00:24:31,990 --> 00:24:30,480
quality of the data and that's why it's

542
00:24:34,250 --> 00:24:32,000
very important to work with

543
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:34,260
well-characterized instruments

544
00:24:40,250 --> 00:24:37,320
and to be you know using them in ways in

545
00:24:43,610 --> 00:24:40,260
which you you understand what's going on

546
00:24:46,730 --> 00:24:43,620
so I think if you look at

547
00:24:48,529 --> 00:24:46,740
you know data taken from the James Webb

548
00:24:49,850 --> 00:24:48,539
Telescope or from the Hubble or any of

549
00:24:52,490 --> 00:24:49,860
these things and these are you know

550
00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:52,500
telescopes looking out in space you'll

551
00:24:56,810 --> 00:24:55,440
see some really you know at first funny

552
00:25:00,289 --> 00:24:56,820
phenomenon

553
00:25:01,250 --> 00:25:00,299
when a telescope points at a star that's

554
00:25:04,669 --> 00:25:01,260
bright

555
00:25:07,130 --> 00:25:04,679
it saturates the detector and puts

556
00:25:09,230 --> 00:25:07,140
bleeding down the detector

557
00:25:13,850 --> 00:25:09,240
and you'll see phenomenon like if

558
00:25:16,070 --> 00:25:13,860
there's a bright star off to the side

559
00:25:16,970 --> 00:25:16,080
of the that not even one you're looking

560
00:25:19,730 --> 00:25:16,980
at

561
00:25:22,310 --> 00:25:19,740
you get this of the effects where light

562
00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:22,320
bounces off of dust

563
00:25:29,210 --> 00:25:26,640
in your telescope and produces a sort of

564
00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:29,220
diffuse image that has some really

565
00:25:32,870 --> 00:25:30,960
strange properties

566
00:25:35,570 --> 00:25:32,880
so you know when you

567
00:25:37,490 --> 00:25:35,580
see something unusual

568
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:37,500
the first thing you have to do is

569
00:25:43,010 --> 00:25:40,320
understand how that data was taken

570
00:25:46,190 --> 00:25:43,020
and I think this is one of the

571
00:25:49,370 --> 00:25:46,200
challenges one faces when you have data

572
00:25:52,610 --> 00:25:49,380
taken by uncalibrated instruments

573
00:25:54,590 --> 00:25:52,620
years ago it's very hard to know what's

574
00:25:56,149 --> 00:25:54,600
taken it's very hard to draw conclusions

575
00:26:01,850 --> 00:25:56,159
I think that's one of the challenges

576
00:26:04,430 --> 00:26:01,860
with archival data and I think having

577
00:26:06,830 --> 00:26:04,440
dedicated well-calibrated instruments I

578
00:26:10,070 --> 00:26:06,840
think will be important here is in any

579
00:26:13,789 --> 00:26:10,080
other area to understand what's going on

580
00:26:16,789 --> 00:26:13,799
so David anomalies are so often the

581
00:26:18,830 --> 00:26:16,799
engine of Discovery maybe you could say

582
00:26:21,110 --> 00:26:18,840
a quick word about high risk High reward

583
00:26:23,450 --> 00:26:21,120
research in your field of cosmology and

584
00:26:24,890 --> 00:26:23,460
how you see that impacting the UAP study

585
00:26:25,909 --> 00:26:24,900
as well

586
00:26:28,549 --> 00:26:25,919
so

587
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:32,269
an area that comes to mind is fast radio

588
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:33,600
bursts

589
00:26:38,690 --> 00:26:37,200
and the shore prize was just announced

590
00:26:40,789 --> 00:26:38,700
yesterday

591
00:26:43,010 --> 00:26:40,799
I'm rewarded to the discovery of fast

592
00:26:44,810 --> 00:26:43,020
radio bursts and these are these

593
00:26:47,690 --> 00:26:44,820
bursting signals

594
00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:47,700
that go off all over in space

595
00:26:53,810 --> 00:26:50,960
and it's an interesting story because

596
00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:53,820
some of the births were real

597
00:26:58,070 --> 00:26:56,880
and are fascinating and some of the

598
00:27:03,470 --> 00:26:58,080
births

599
00:27:06,470 --> 00:27:03,480
this observatory in Australia

600
00:27:08,510 --> 00:27:06,480
and they had really strange structure

601
00:27:10,610 --> 00:27:08,520
and people couldn't figure out what was

602
00:27:12,529 --> 00:27:10,620
going on

603
00:27:16,130 --> 00:27:12,539
and then they start to notice a lot of

604
00:27:18,409 --> 00:27:16,140
them bunched together around lunchtime

605
00:27:20,510 --> 00:27:18,419
and what had happened was

606
00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:20,520
the uh

607
00:27:25,070 --> 00:27:22,799
people at the observatory would heat up

608
00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:25,080
their lunch in the microwave

609
00:27:28,850 --> 00:27:27,120
and something they would do is they

610
00:27:29,930 --> 00:27:28,860
would open the door of the microwave

611
00:27:32,570 --> 00:27:29,940
oven

612
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:32,580
before the

613
00:27:37,930 --> 00:27:35,039
microwave stopped

614
00:27:41,450 --> 00:27:37,940
this is bad for your microwave oven

615
00:27:44,450 --> 00:27:41,460
it wears it out but not only that It

616
00:27:46,010 --> 00:27:44,460
produced a burst of radio signals that

617
00:27:47,149 --> 00:27:46,020
was picked up by these sensitive

618
00:27:48,409 --> 00:27:47,159
detectors

619
00:27:56,510 --> 00:27:48,419
so

620
00:27:59,810 --> 00:27:56,520
unusual and conventional

621
00:28:03,010 --> 00:27:59,820
but some events with these frbs turn out

622
00:28:05,990 --> 00:28:03,020
to be these powerful explosions

623
00:28:08,049 --> 00:28:06,000
which are taking place a cosmological

624
00:28:11,149 --> 00:28:08,059
distances

625
00:28:12,430 --> 00:28:11,159
their nature is still not fully

626
00:28:14,690 --> 00:28:12,440
understood

627
00:28:17,090 --> 00:28:14,700
I think they're one of the really most

628
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:17,100
fascinating objects we have these bursts

629
00:28:22,549 --> 00:28:19,520
going out all over space

630
00:28:24,710 --> 00:28:22,559
they're interesting Pros because they're

631
00:28:25,610 --> 00:28:24,720
kind of lighting up space between here

632
00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:25,620
and there

633
00:28:29,090 --> 00:28:28,080
and they're a subject of a reactive

634
00:28:31,010 --> 00:28:29,100
research

635
00:28:34,370 --> 00:28:31,020
and in fact you know one looks at the

636
00:28:36,890 --> 00:28:34,380
history of these frbs at first they were

637
00:28:39,470 --> 00:28:36,900
discovered not believed and confirmly

638
00:28:41,390 --> 00:28:39,480
confirmed and they were discovered by

639
00:28:43,310 --> 00:28:41,400
instruments that were very sensitive but

640
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:43,320
not optimized for this

641
00:28:48,110 --> 00:28:45,840
and now what we're doing is we're

642
00:28:51,590 --> 00:28:48,120
optimizing instruments and optimizing

643
00:28:54,890 --> 00:28:51,600
software to look for these events

644
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:54,900
it's often these surprises that turn out

645
00:29:00,470 --> 00:28:56,640
to be most interesting

646
00:29:02,450 --> 00:29:00,480
and you know there are phenomenon like

647
00:29:04,190 --> 00:29:02,460
Sprites which you can think of as upward

648
00:29:07,970 --> 00:29:04,200
going lightning

649
00:29:09,890 --> 00:29:07,980
which were seen by commercial pilots and

650
00:29:12,409 --> 00:29:09,900
some had not believed right because they

651
00:29:15,470 --> 00:29:12,419
were very strange and and it was really

652
00:29:18,769 --> 00:29:15,480
only when we were able to take very high

653
00:29:21,289 --> 00:29:18,779
speed Imaging data data taken often from

654
00:29:25,130 --> 00:29:21,299
places like space station that we're

655
00:29:27,230 --> 00:29:25,140
able to see that and learn about these

656
00:29:30,169 --> 00:29:27,240
some fascinating ionospheric phenomena

657
00:29:32,690 --> 00:29:30,179
so it's uh surprises are really

658
00:29:34,789 --> 00:29:32,700
interesting I mean I think this is

659
00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:34,799
one of the

660
00:29:39,889 --> 00:29:38,100
uh fascinating things about the UAP

661
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:39,899
phenomenon if it's something that's

662
00:29:43,549 --> 00:29:41,279
anomalous

663
00:29:46,130 --> 00:29:43,559
that makes it interesting and worthy of

664
00:29:49,010 --> 00:29:47,690
other questions

665
00:30:01,850 --> 00:29:49,020
great

666
00:30:05,930 --> 00:30:04,010
thank you David Dan

667
00:30:07,789 --> 00:30:05,940
pleasure to be back good morning

668
00:30:10,010 --> 00:30:07,799
everyone I want to start by thanking

669
00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:10,020
NASA for convening today's

670
00:30:15,830 --> 00:30:13,200
UAP independent study public meeting and

671
00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:15,840
inviting me to continue to participate

672
00:30:20,450 --> 00:30:18,240
NASA has been an invaluable partner to

673
00:30:22,789 --> 00:30:20,460
our team at Arrow as we work to better

674
00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:22,799
understand and respond to unidentified

675
00:30:27,649 --> 00:30:25,200
anomalous phenomena

676
00:30:29,570 --> 00:30:27,659
we applaud NASA for commissioning its

677
00:30:31,850 --> 00:30:29,580
independent study team and for exploring

678
00:30:34,850 --> 00:30:31,860
what data and tools could be leveraged

679
00:30:37,310 --> 00:30:34,860
to shed greater light on UAP

680
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:37,320
though NASA and arrow are taking on very

681
00:30:42,250 --> 00:30:40,320
different aspects of the UAP problem set

682
00:30:44,750 --> 00:30:42,260
our efforts are very much complementary

683
00:30:47,630 --> 00:30:44,760
we both are committed to the scientific

684
00:30:49,610 --> 00:30:47,640
method to a data-driven approach

685
00:30:51,409 --> 00:30:49,620
and the highest standards of scientific

686
00:30:53,870 --> 00:30:51,419
research integrity

687
00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:53,880
while NASA is evaluating unclassified

688
00:31:00,590 --> 00:30:57,600
data sources for its study arrows data

689
00:31:03,230 --> 00:31:00,600
set includes classified material with a

690
00:31:06,289 --> 00:31:03,240
focus on National Security areas

691
00:31:08,029 --> 00:31:06,299
however all of this data collectively is

692
00:31:10,730 --> 00:31:08,039
critical to understanding the nature and

693
00:31:13,070 --> 00:31:10,740
origin of UAP

694
00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:13,080
NASA brings unique capabilities

695
00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:16,140
world-class scientists and a wealth of

696
00:31:21,889 --> 00:31:19,440
academic and research linkages

697
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:21,899
NASA also has access to Earth sensing

698
00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:23,120
satellites

699
00:31:27,409 --> 00:31:25,440
radiological sensors tools for

700
00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:27,419
gravitational wave geomagnetic wave

701
00:31:32,330 --> 00:31:30,000
detection and means for analyzing open

702
00:31:34,730 --> 00:31:32,340
source cloud and crowdsourced data that

703
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:34,740
may assist both Aero and NASA in their

704
00:31:38,810 --> 00:31:36,720
UAP efforts

705
00:31:41,810 --> 00:31:38,820
we are very grateful for the partnership

706
00:31:43,669 --> 00:31:41,820
and welcome the opportunity to join with

707
00:31:45,649 --> 00:31:43,679
NASA to share our Collective findings

708
00:31:48,169 --> 00:31:45,659
with the public as the U.S government

709
00:31:50,389 --> 00:31:48,179
moves towards greater transparency on

710
00:31:52,730 --> 00:31:50,399
this issue

711
00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:52,740
last month I testified before members of

712
00:31:56,930 --> 00:31:54,720
the Senate armed services committee on

713
00:31:59,570 --> 00:31:56,940
emerging threats and capabilities

714
00:32:03,230 --> 00:31:59,580
and shared some of the progress made

715
00:32:05,090 --> 00:32:03,240
since Arrow's establishment in July 2022

716
00:32:06,769 --> 00:32:05,100
I discussed arrows scientific and

717
00:32:09,409 --> 00:32:06,779
analytic approaches

718
00:32:11,630 --> 00:32:09,419
its efforts to improve UAP data

719
00:32:14,690 --> 00:32:11,640
collection standardize our reporting

720
00:32:16,850 --> 00:32:14,700
processes leverage our Partnerships and

721
00:32:19,669 --> 00:32:16,860
meticulously review the US government's

722
00:32:22,190 --> 00:32:19,679
UAP related historical records

723
00:32:25,250 --> 00:32:22,200
as I told the subcommittee then the

724
00:32:27,350 --> 00:32:25,260
resolution of all UAP cases cannot be

725
00:32:29,029 --> 00:32:27,360
accomplished by DOD and the intelligence

726
00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:29,039
Community alone

727
00:32:33,230 --> 00:32:30,960
era's ultimate success will require

728
00:32:36,289 --> 00:32:33,240
Partnerships with the interagency

729
00:32:38,810 --> 00:32:36,299
industry Academia the scientific

730
00:32:41,029 --> 00:32:38,820
community and the public

731
00:32:44,750 --> 00:32:41,039
which all bring their own resources

732
00:32:47,930 --> 00:32:44,760
ideas and expertise to the UAP challenge

733
00:32:48,649 --> 00:32:47,940
We Believe robust collaboration and peer

734
00:32:50,750 --> 00:32:48,659
review

735
00:32:52,370 --> 00:32:50,760
across a broad range of Partners will

736
00:32:55,430 --> 00:32:52,380
promote greater objectivity and

737
00:32:58,010 --> 00:32:55,440
transparency in the study of UAP

738
00:32:59,810 --> 00:32:58,020
of course NASA's UAP independent study

739
00:33:01,250 --> 00:32:59,820
team was convened very much in that

740
00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:01,260
spirit

741
00:33:06,169 --> 00:33:03,840
I also emphasized to Congress that the

742
00:33:08,870 --> 00:33:06,179
only a very small percentage of UAP

743
00:33:12,289 --> 00:33:08,880
reports displays signatures that could

744
00:33:14,690 --> 00:33:12,299
reasonably be described as anomalous

745
00:33:17,330 --> 00:33:14,700
the majority of unidentified objects

746
00:33:20,450 --> 00:33:17,340
reported to Arrow and in our Holdings

747
00:33:22,730 --> 00:33:20,460
demonstrate mundane characteristics of

748
00:33:25,070 --> 00:33:22,740
readily explainable sources

749
00:33:27,289 --> 00:33:25,080
while a large number of cases in arrows

750
00:33:30,590 --> 00:33:27,299
Holdings remain technically unresolved

751
00:33:33,049 --> 00:33:30,600
this is primarily due to a lack of data

752
00:33:35,330 --> 00:33:33,059
associated with those cases

753
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:35,340
very much along the lines of what David

754
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:37,440
was just speaking about

755
00:33:42,289 --> 00:33:40,080
without sufficient data we are unable to

756
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:42,299
reach defendable conclusions that meet

757
00:33:45,889 --> 00:33:44,159
the high scientific standards we set for

758
00:33:48,110 --> 00:33:45,899
resolution

759
00:33:49,789 --> 00:33:48,120
meanwhile for the few objects that do

760
00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:49,799
demonstrate potentially anomalous

761
00:33:54,110 --> 00:33:52,260
characteristics arrows approaching these

762
00:33:57,470 --> 00:33:54,120
cases with the highest level

763
00:33:59,690 --> 00:33:57,480
of objectivity and analytic rigor this

764
00:34:02,509 --> 00:33:59,700
includes physical testing and employing

765
00:34:05,450 --> 00:34:02,519
modeling and simulation to validate our

766
00:34:07,310 --> 00:34:05,460
analyzes and the underlying theories and

767
00:34:09,649 --> 00:34:07,320
then peer reviewing those results before

768
00:34:11,930 --> 00:34:09,659
reaching any conclusions

769
00:34:14,510 --> 00:34:11,940
Arrow has shared these cases with the

770
00:34:16,849 --> 00:34:14,520
appropriately cleared NASA team members

771
00:34:19,790 --> 00:34:16,859
in order to discuss and help recommend

772
00:34:22,129 --> 00:34:19,800
potential scientific areas of study that

773
00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:22,139
NASA may want to take lead on

774
00:34:26,270 --> 00:34:24,240
I'll underscore here as I did before

775
00:34:28,849 --> 00:34:26,280
Congress at arrows work will take time

776
00:34:30,589 --> 00:34:28,859
if we are committed to doing it right

777
00:34:32,089 --> 00:34:30,599
arrow is committed to the highest

778
00:34:34,730 --> 00:34:32,099
standards of scientific research

779
00:34:36,530 --> 00:34:34,740
Integrity as we know our partners at

780
00:34:38,450 --> 00:34:36,540
Nasa are as well

781
00:34:40,609 --> 00:34:38,460
thanks again to NASA for hosting this

782
00:34:42,770 --> 00:34:40,619
public forum for UAP discussion and

783
00:34:44,869 --> 00:34:42,780
information exchange and I'd like to

784
00:34:46,849 --> 00:34:44,879
turn to a brief presentation that

785
00:34:51,169 --> 00:34:46,859
includes some recently Declassified

786
00:34:54,530 --> 00:34:51,179
footage and trends for discussion

787
00:34:59,890 --> 00:34:57,050
so if some of you probably saw a version

788
00:35:02,349 --> 00:34:59,900
of this at the open hearing last month

789
00:35:05,210 --> 00:35:02,359
this is an overall

790
00:35:07,609 --> 00:35:05,220
review of all the analytic trends of all

791
00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:07,619
the cases that we have to date while the

792
00:35:17,210 --> 00:35:13,450
um the overall Trends remain the same

793
00:35:19,849 --> 00:35:17,220
most of what we are seeing reported by

794
00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:19,859
aircraft are at the altitudes where we

795
00:35:23,390 --> 00:35:22,320
fly aircraft that should not be a

796
00:35:25,609 --> 00:35:23,400
surprise

797
00:35:28,130 --> 00:35:25,619
you will note however that I have no

798
00:35:30,050 --> 00:35:28,140
space reports and I have no Maritime

799
00:35:32,210 --> 00:35:30,060
reports

800
00:35:34,910 --> 00:35:32,220
that is notable even though we are

801
00:35:37,510 --> 00:35:34,920
looking across all of those domains

802
00:35:40,430 --> 00:35:37,520
on the upper right we have UAP

803
00:35:42,410 --> 00:35:40,440
morphologies the vast majority of what

804
00:35:46,970 --> 00:35:42,420
has been reported and what we have data

805
00:35:49,329 --> 00:35:46,980
on a little less than half now our orbs

806
00:35:52,730 --> 00:35:49,339
round spheres

807
00:35:55,609 --> 00:35:52,740
and in the bottom right you will see in

808
00:35:58,010 --> 00:35:55,619
the really the the Heats map of the

809
00:36:00,530 --> 00:35:58,020
areas where we get most of our reporting

810
00:36:03,530 --> 00:36:00,540
this is very much a collection biased

811
00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:03,540
map this is where our sensors are our

812
00:36:08,930 --> 00:36:07,440
military and our IC and some of the FAA

813
00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:08,940
data

814
00:36:14,810 --> 00:36:12,000
in the middle is what we call our

815
00:36:17,150 --> 00:36:14,820
typical UAP characteristics for the vast

816
00:36:20,030 --> 00:36:17,160
majority of the cases that we see

817
00:36:22,370 --> 00:36:20,040
one way of looking at that is a is a

818
00:36:25,550 --> 00:36:22,380
we'll call it a Target package this is

819
00:36:27,650 --> 00:36:25,560
the thing we are out hunting for in most

820
00:36:32,210 --> 00:36:27,660
cases

821
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:34,609
this is an example of one that I showed

822
00:36:39,890 --> 00:36:37,440
at the hearing recently this is a

823
00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:39,900
spherical orb metallic in the Middle

824
00:36:45,650 --> 00:36:44,160
East 2022 by an MQ-9

825
00:36:47,450 --> 00:36:45,660
and we'll come back to the sensor

826
00:36:48,829 --> 00:36:47,460
question that David raised here in a

827
00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:48,839
moment

828
00:36:54,349 --> 00:36:51,599
this is a typical example of the thing

829
00:36:57,650 --> 00:36:54,359
that we see most of we see these all

830
00:37:00,290 --> 00:36:57,660
over the world and we see these in and

831
00:37:03,950 --> 00:37:00,300
making very interesting

832
00:37:08,569 --> 00:37:05,990
this one in particular however I would

833
00:37:11,150 --> 00:37:08,579
point out demonstrated no enigmatic

834
00:37:13,490 --> 00:37:11,160
technical capabilities and was no threat

835
00:37:15,650 --> 00:37:13,500
to Airborne safety

836
00:37:18,050 --> 00:37:15,660
while we are still looking at it I don't

837
00:37:20,089 --> 00:37:18,060
have any more data other than that

838
00:37:23,270 --> 00:37:20,099
and so being able to come to some

839
00:37:25,849 --> 00:37:23,280
conclusion is going to take time until

840
00:37:28,490 --> 00:37:25,859
we can get better resolved data on

841
00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:28,500
similar objects that we can then do a

842
00:37:34,190 --> 00:37:30,720
larger analysis on

843
00:37:40,310 --> 00:37:36,589
I'm going to let this play through this

844
00:37:42,950 --> 00:37:40,320
is a newly released video you'll notice

845
00:37:45,290 --> 00:37:42,960
there are two dots moving back and forth

846
00:37:47,270 --> 00:37:45,300
there is a plane at the bottom that's

847
00:37:49,730 --> 00:37:47,280
moving across the screen and now there

848
00:37:52,790 --> 00:37:49,740
are three dots moving back and forth

849
00:37:54,349 --> 00:37:52,800
the moving back and forth is from the

850
00:37:58,730 --> 00:37:54,359
sensor and the platform that's

851
00:38:00,170 --> 00:37:58,740
collecting it this is a a P3 on a

852
00:38:02,870 --> 00:38:00,180
training mission in the Western United

853
00:38:05,390 --> 00:38:02,880
States they picked these up and they

854
00:38:07,190 --> 00:38:05,400
tried to intercept and was unable to

855
00:38:10,069 --> 00:38:07,200
intercept them

856
00:38:12,829 --> 00:38:10,079
apart from that motion and you'll see a

857
00:38:13,730 --> 00:38:12,839
little bit of defocusing from the sensor

858
00:38:16,250 --> 00:38:13,740
itself

859
00:38:19,130 --> 00:38:16,260
there is no other

860
00:38:21,410 --> 00:38:19,140
Oddity about this except for the fact

861
00:38:22,910 --> 00:38:21,420
that they couldn't catch them the reason

862
00:38:25,970 --> 00:38:22,920
they couldn't catch them is because

863
00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:25,980
after further analysis it was shown that

864
00:38:31,130 --> 00:38:28,320
those objects were actually much farther

865
00:38:33,349 --> 00:38:31,140
away from the P3 than they thought

866
00:38:35,450 --> 00:38:33,359
and in fact when we went even deeper

867
00:38:37,970 --> 00:38:35,460
looked at Air Traffic Control Data we

868
00:38:41,450 --> 00:38:37,980
were able to match those to aircraft on

869
00:38:43,849 --> 00:38:41,460
a major flight Corridor heading into a

870
00:38:47,870 --> 00:38:43,859
major airport for landing

871
00:38:50,990 --> 00:38:47,880
this is the kind of thing that can

872
00:38:54,290 --> 00:38:51,000
spoof and or provide misperception of

873
00:38:55,790 --> 00:38:54,300
both very highly trained pilots as well

874
00:38:59,150 --> 00:38:55,800
as sensors

875
00:39:01,970 --> 00:38:59,160
right and this was reported as an odd

876
00:39:03,230 --> 00:39:01,980
grouping of three UAP

877
00:39:05,870 --> 00:39:03,240
all right

878
00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:05,880
that is not to say that the pilots

879
00:39:10,130 --> 00:39:08,160
didn't know what they were looking at or

880
00:39:12,650 --> 00:39:10,140
they they knew what they were looking at

881
00:39:14,690 --> 00:39:12,660
but they weren't really sure but it also

882
00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:14,700
is meant to say that when they're not

883
00:39:18,230 --> 00:39:16,560
sure they're reporting it now and that's

884
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:18,240
what they're supposed to be doing and

885
00:39:21,650 --> 00:39:20,010
then we have to go look at it

886
00:39:25,069 --> 00:39:21,660
[Music]

887
00:39:28,609 --> 00:39:27,109
that brings us to really what is Arrow

888
00:39:30,710 --> 00:39:28,619
doing in the science and Technical

889
00:39:31,870 --> 00:39:30,720
Realms so this is one of those areas

890
00:39:34,010 --> 00:39:31,880
that

891
00:39:37,390 --> 00:39:34,020
I'm going to expound a little bit more

892
00:39:39,829 --> 00:39:37,400
on than we did in the last hearings

893
00:39:42,349 --> 00:39:39,839
Arrow has a

894
00:39:44,450 --> 00:39:42,359
robust scientific plan that we are

895
00:39:46,990 --> 00:39:44,460
required to then provide to Congress

896
00:39:49,310 --> 00:39:47,000
here pretty soon

897
00:39:51,470 --> 00:39:49,320
one of the first things that we're doing

898
00:39:54,589 --> 00:39:51,480
is looking across all the existing

899
00:39:57,109 --> 00:39:54,599
sensor data against that typical UAP

900
00:40:00,470 --> 00:39:57,119
Target that I gave you up at the very

901
00:40:02,510 --> 00:40:00,480
first slide that goes beyond DOD and IC

902
00:40:04,730 --> 00:40:02,520
sensors that's commercial that's civil

903
00:40:08,050 --> 00:40:04,740
that's in and with partnership with NASA

904
00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:08,060
with NASA sensors and NOAA sensors

905
00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:10,560
understanding if any of these Earth

906
00:40:15,290 --> 00:40:13,140
sensing satellites any of these Airborne

907
00:40:17,630 --> 00:40:15,300
platforms any of these ground Radars

908
00:40:19,609 --> 00:40:17,640
whether it's FAA or other can actually

909
00:40:22,370 --> 00:40:19,619
see these things

910
00:40:23,810 --> 00:40:22,380
given what we've got so far is going to

911
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:23,820
be an important first step to

912
00:40:28,130 --> 00:40:25,440
understanding which sensors are going to

913
00:40:33,050 --> 00:40:30,890
from there we will we are augmenting

914
00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:33,060
with dedicated sensors that we've

915
00:40:38,630 --> 00:40:36,240
purpose built designed to detect track

916
00:40:41,150 --> 00:40:38,640
and characterize those particular

917
00:40:43,970 --> 00:40:41,160
objects we will be then putting those

918
00:40:46,730 --> 00:40:43,980
out in very select areas for

919
00:40:49,490 --> 00:40:46,740
surveillance purposes

920
00:40:51,770 --> 00:40:49,500
Partnerships with Academia exploring the

921
00:40:54,290 --> 00:40:51,780
signatures to match to our data so

922
00:40:56,810 --> 00:40:54,300
understanding if a thing is moving and

923
00:40:58,310 --> 00:40:56,820
if it is doing certain anomalous

924
00:41:00,470 --> 00:40:58,320
activities what are the signatures we

925
00:41:03,290 --> 00:41:00,480
would expect to see how do we pull on

926
00:41:05,390 --> 00:41:03,300
that and then from there how do I tune

927
00:41:06,890 --> 00:41:05,400
my collection architecture to go after

928
00:41:08,930 --> 00:41:06,900
it

929
00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:08,940
statistical analytic techniques we're

930
00:41:12,950 --> 00:41:11,040
working with a couple of universities on

931
00:41:16,069 --> 00:41:12,960
how do I do broader base statistical

932
00:41:18,230 --> 00:41:16,079
analysis on unclassified and classified

933
00:41:20,630 --> 00:41:18,240
data so that I can apply those analytics

934
00:41:23,390 --> 00:41:20,640
to our Holdings

935
00:41:26,390 --> 00:41:23,400
and then Ai and ml analytic techniques

936
00:41:28,370 --> 00:41:26,400
for searching out through the data what

937
00:41:31,310 --> 00:41:28,380
are this what are the objects what are

938
00:41:33,890 --> 00:41:31,320
the targets that we're going after

939
00:41:36,290 --> 00:41:33,900
we have Partnerships with both DOD and

940
00:41:38,510 --> 00:41:36,300
doe labs to explore our current

941
00:41:40,609 --> 00:41:38,520
state-of-the-art fundamental physics of

942
00:41:42,829 --> 00:41:40,619
UAP observations

943
00:41:45,349 --> 00:41:42,839
both current and historical in other

944
00:41:47,349 --> 00:41:45,359
words if I have objects those few that

945
00:41:50,569 --> 00:41:47,359
are doing some things that are anomalous

946
00:41:52,730 --> 00:41:50,579
what is our current understanding of

947
00:41:54,370 --> 00:41:52,740
maneuverability

948
00:41:56,829 --> 00:41:54,380
speed

949
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:56,839
signature management

950
00:42:01,490 --> 00:41:59,760
propulsion what are those underlying

951
00:42:05,329 --> 00:42:01,500
signatures that we would expect to see

952
00:42:07,430 --> 00:42:05,339
and how do I then pull on that

953
00:42:09,530 --> 00:42:07,440
our interagency and Allied partnership

954
00:42:11,510 --> 00:42:09,540
ships for calibration of our

955
00:42:14,329 --> 00:42:11,520
capabilities this is exactly what David

956
00:42:16,670 --> 00:42:14,339
was pointing at the vast majority of

957
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:16,680
what we have reported to us are DOD

958
00:42:21,589 --> 00:42:19,680
sensors DOD sensors are not scientific

959
00:42:23,089 --> 00:42:21,599
sensors they are not intelligence

960
00:42:24,710 --> 00:42:23,099
Community sensors

961
00:42:26,750 --> 00:42:24,720
Believe It or Not intelligence Community

962
00:42:28,730 --> 00:42:26,760
sensors are very close to Scientific

963
00:42:31,069 --> 00:42:28,740
sensors they are calibrated they are

964
00:42:34,069 --> 00:42:31,079
high Precision they are everything you'd

965
00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:34,079
ever want to know about a thing

966
00:42:40,010 --> 00:42:36,960
DOD sensors have one purpose they are to

967
00:42:41,450 --> 00:42:40,020
identify an object that is known and put

968
00:42:43,550 --> 00:42:41,460
a weapon on it

969
00:42:46,430 --> 00:42:43,560
that is what they're for right

970
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:46,440
predominantly so understanding how do

971
00:42:51,589 --> 00:42:48,480
you calibrate those against these known

972
00:42:53,810 --> 00:42:51,599
objects how do I fly in F-35 against a

973
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:53,820
weather balloon at different speeds and

974
00:42:57,589 --> 00:42:55,440
different altitudes and different Sun

975
00:42:59,569 --> 00:42:57,599
conditions and different lighting

976
00:43:02,030 --> 00:42:59,579
conditions and and heating conditions

977
00:43:04,130 --> 00:43:02,040
those are all important measurements

978
00:43:07,190 --> 00:43:04,140
that need to be done and we are on the

979
00:43:09,470 --> 00:43:07,200
in process of doing that right now that

980
00:43:12,290 --> 00:43:09,480
table on the right is a very simplified

981
00:43:14,210 --> 00:43:12,300
version of our entire test Matrix which

982
00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:14,220
you would not be able to fit on three of

983
00:43:20,569 --> 00:43:16,800
these slides against all of our sensors

984
00:43:22,490 --> 00:43:20,579
across all of those phenomenologies

985
00:43:24,950 --> 00:43:22,500
that will be useful in order to then

986
00:43:27,770 --> 00:43:24,960
train our operators pilots and sensors

987
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:27,780
against the known objects

988
00:43:31,190 --> 00:43:29,760
and then finally our pattern of Life

989
00:43:33,410 --> 00:43:31,200
analysis

990
00:43:35,930 --> 00:43:33,420
this is essentially baselining what is

991
00:43:38,390 --> 00:43:35,940
normal I have all these Hot Spot areas

992
00:43:40,430 --> 00:43:38,400
but we only have hotspot areas because

993
00:43:42,170 --> 00:43:40,440
that's when the reports come in from The

994
00:43:43,069 --> 00:43:42,180
Operators that are operating at that

995
00:43:49,730 --> 00:43:43,079
time

996
00:43:52,910 --> 00:43:49,740
so to have a 24 7 collection monitoring

997
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:52,920
campaign in some of these areas for

998
00:43:58,130 --> 00:43:55,200
three months at a time is going to be

999
00:44:00,829 --> 00:43:58,140
necessary in order to measure out what

1000
00:44:01,670 --> 00:44:00,839
is normal then I'll know what is not

1001
00:44:03,470 --> 00:44:01,680
normal

1002
00:44:05,870 --> 00:44:03,480
all right when we have additional things

1003
00:44:08,990 --> 00:44:05,880
that come through those spaces

1004
00:44:10,970 --> 00:44:09,000
and that includes space and maritime

1005
00:44:12,410 --> 00:44:10,980
next slide please

1006
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:12,420
which brings me to some of my

1007
00:44:18,829 --> 00:44:14,880
recommendations for the panel and their

1008
00:44:23,569 --> 00:44:20,690
some of these we're going to be

1009
00:44:25,970 --> 00:44:23,579
exploring with our our new NASA embed

1010
00:44:27,710 --> 00:44:25,980
I'm happy to be welcoming on for your

1011
00:44:31,190 --> 00:44:27,720
pretty soon who's going to help us in

1012
00:44:35,450 --> 00:44:32,650
um

1013
00:44:37,370 --> 00:44:35,460
crowdsourcing unclassified open source

1014
00:44:40,430 --> 00:44:37,380
data this is where you know some of the

1015
00:44:43,849 --> 00:44:40,440
public can be helpful you know

1016
00:44:45,890 --> 00:44:43,859
imagery from a iPhone is generally not

1017
00:44:47,930 --> 00:44:45,900
helpful unless you are right up on

1018
00:44:49,309 --> 00:44:47,940
whatever it is you're looking at

1019
00:44:51,710 --> 00:44:49,319
however

1020
00:44:55,550 --> 00:44:51,720
some of the ancillary data that your

1021
00:44:58,089 --> 00:44:55,560
iPhone provides from location to speed

1022
00:45:00,530 --> 00:44:58,099
to you know other

1023
00:45:03,790 --> 00:45:00,540
phenomenologies and more than one of

1024
00:45:08,950 --> 00:45:06,290
large-scale ground-based scientific

1025
00:45:10,849 --> 00:45:08,960
instrumentation

1026
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:10,859
evaluating

1027
00:45:14,990 --> 00:45:12,720
how can I use some of these other

1028
00:45:18,589 --> 00:45:15,000
instruments for detection the frb

1029
00:45:20,530 --> 00:45:18,599
example was was perfect right you have a

1030
00:45:22,670 --> 00:45:20,540
bunch of large scales

1031
00:45:24,230 --> 00:45:22,680
instruments that were not designed for

1032
00:45:26,990 --> 00:45:24,240
that yet they picked them up because

1033
00:45:28,190 --> 00:45:27,000
there was a microwave

1034
00:45:32,270 --> 00:45:28,200
well

1035
00:45:35,089 --> 00:45:32,280
we have a a surrogate Target package of

1036
00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:35,099
what we think these things are at least

1037
00:45:38,690 --> 00:45:37,200
from a what we've got reported to us

1038
00:45:39,970 --> 00:45:38,700
that was in the front

1039
00:45:43,130 --> 00:45:39,980
slide

1040
00:45:46,010 --> 00:45:43,140
understanding how can I evaluate that

1041
00:45:48,410 --> 00:45:46,020
against all of these other instruments

1042
00:45:50,089 --> 00:45:48,420
and do any of them have a chance of

1043
00:45:52,250 --> 00:45:50,099
picking anything up that would be

1044
00:45:55,730 --> 00:45:52,260
helpful in tipping and queuing us to get

1045
00:46:00,650 --> 00:45:58,550
I think leading that evaluation of the

1046
00:46:03,770 --> 00:46:00,660
scientific ground-based sensors would be

1047
00:46:05,750 --> 00:46:03,780
useful also the same thing for the Earth

1048
00:46:09,190 --> 00:46:05,760
Sciences satellites as we mentioned

1049
00:46:13,550 --> 00:46:11,809
intentional Vice coincidental collection

1050
00:46:17,390 --> 00:46:13,560
so

1051
00:46:21,550 --> 00:46:17,400
looking at how can I provide a tip and

1052
00:46:24,309 --> 00:46:21,560
cue to both the ground and space-based

1053
00:46:27,890 --> 00:46:24,319
scientific and academic sensor Community

1054
00:46:30,589 --> 00:46:27,900
to put additional sensors on a object

1055
00:46:34,550 --> 00:46:30,599
when it is reported I'm currently doing

1056
00:46:38,270 --> 00:46:34,560
that with arrow The Joint staff the

1057
00:46:41,690 --> 00:46:38,280
commands for when they get tip in queue

1058
00:46:44,270 --> 00:46:41,700
right so a pilot says something they see

1059
00:46:46,010 --> 00:46:44,280
something they report it in and we're

1060
00:46:48,109 --> 00:46:46,020
going to turn on a whole bunch of new

1061
00:46:50,510 --> 00:46:48,119
collection to go after it I should be

1062
00:46:52,849 --> 00:46:50,520
able to hand that same tip and cue to

1063
00:46:54,710 --> 00:46:52,859
the scientific and academic community

1064
00:46:55,970 --> 00:46:54,720
so looking at how that works would be

1065
00:46:59,390 --> 00:46:55,980
helpful

1066
00:47:01,370 --> 00:46:59,400
peer reviewing Advanced capabilities the

1067
00:47:02,690 --> 00:47:01,380
parameterization and the publication of

1068
00:47:04,250 --> 00:47:02,700
that that have not yet been engineered

1069
00:47:07,970 --> 00:47:04,260
we understand a lot of fundamental

1070
00:47:10,849 --> 00:47:07,980
physics it is the scientific community's

1071
00:47:13,250 --> 00:47:10,859
responsibility to explore and document

1072
00:47:15,470 --> 00:47:13,260
those fundamentals and peer-reviewed

1073
00:47:17,690 --> 00:47:15,480
scientific journals to match to data so

1074
00:47:20,510 --> 00:47:17,700
that we can weed out all kinds of

1075
00:47:22,190 --> 00:47:20,520
different hypotheses right that's how

1076
00:47:24,290 --> 00:47:22,200
science works we need to make sure that

1077
00:47:26,510 --> 00:47:24,300
we are doing that I think leading that

1078
00:47:28,569 --> 00:47:26,520
conversation would be very helpful from

1079
00:47:31,490 --> 00:47:28,579
NASA's perspective

1080
00:47:34,630 --> 00:47:31,500
archived scientific data so we have a

1081
00:47:37,609 --> 00:47:34,640
whole bunch of calibrated large-scale

1082
00:47:41,210 --> 00:47:37,619
scientific data from all these different

1083
00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:41,220
instrumentations around the world taking

1084
00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:43,680
a look at how can you apply some maybe

1085
00:47:50,809 --> 00:47:47,520
some AIML tools to search through that

1086
00:47:52,730 --> 00:47:50,819
data for anomalous signatures that may

1087
00:47:54,770 --> 00:47:52,740
correlate to things that we've got

1088
00:47:56,530 --> 00:47:54,780
reporting on that would be an

1089
00:47:58,670 --> 00:47:56,540
interesting study

1090
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:58,680
distributions of sightings I think this

1091
00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:00,480
is a low hanging fruit one right so if

1092
00:48:05,390 --> 00:48:03,119
we take a look at all of the

1093
00:48:07,309 --> 00:48:05,400
distributions of sightings that are

1094
00:48:09,230 --> 00:48:07,319
outside of my National Security areas

1095
00:48:10,730 --> 00:48:09,240
that I've got classified reporting for

1096
00:48:12,710 --> 00:48:10,740
and they generate the similar

1097
00:48:14,510 --> 00:48:12,720
distribution map as we've got and we put

1098
00:48:16,309 --> 00:48:14,520
those two pieces together now I have a

1099
00:48:17,630 --> 00:48:16,319
holistic picture

1100
00:48:19,670 --> 00:48:17,640
and then of course our foreign

1101
00:48:22,250 --> 00:48:19,680
Partnerships building a robust

1102
00:48:25,809 --> 00:48:22,260
scientific community of Interest review

1103
00:48:29,210 --> 00:48:25,819
data capabilities conduct analysis

1104
00:48:31,790 --> 00:48:29,220
expanding upon you know our military and

1105
00:48:33,950 --> 00:48:31,800
intelligence collaborations across the

1106
00:48:36,050 --> 00:48:33,960
world into the scientific and academic

1107
00:48:38,950 --> 00:48:36,060
world

1108
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:38,960
and with that those were my thoughts

1109
00:48:44,270 --> 00:48:41,280
we've talked about some of these in the

1110
00:48:46,309 --> 00:48:44,280
past it would be interesting to to hear

1111
00:48:48,530 --> 00:48:46,319
if there's any further questions or

1112
00:48:50,329 --> 00:48:48,540
deliberations on any of those points and

1113
00:48:52,130 --> 00:48:50,339
I'm happy to take any questions that you

1114
00:48:54,890 --> 00:48:52,140
all have

1115
00:48:56,450 --> 00:48:54,900
great uh thank you Dr Kirkpatrick and I

1116
00:48:59,870 --> 00:48:56,460
also want to you take this opportunity

1117
00:49:02,750 --> 00:48:59,880
to thank you in the Aro for your

1118
00:49:05,690 --> 00:49:02,760
openness in providing this committee

1119
00:49:07,849 --> 00:49:05,700
with insight and information about what

1120
00:49:08,750 --> 00:49:07,859
you've learned so far how we could work

1121
00:49:10,790 --> 00:49:08,760
together

1122
00:49:13,550 --> 00:49:10,800
think this is very much an area where

1123
00:49:16,430 --> 00:49:13,560
it's going to be essential that NASA be

1124
00:49:19,910 --> 00:49:16,440
a partner and be a good partner for aaro

1125
00:49:21,230 --> 00:49:19,920
and I think you're uh really want to

1126
00:49:23,630 --> 00:49:21,240
thank you for your role with this

1127
00:49:26,030 --> 00:49:23,640
Committee in helping to start to build

1128
00:49:30,770 --> 00:49:26,040
that partnership it's been my pleasure

1129
00:49:32,630 --> 00:49:30,780
and let's uh Reggie Griffin

1130
00:49:34,010 --> 00:49:32,640
um question uh we talked a lot about

1131
00:49:36,890 --> 00:49:34,020
data already

1132
00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:36,900
what's up with sensors for a second so

1133
00:49:39,650 --> 00:49:38,400
you mentioned that you work with Labs

1134
00:49:41,930 --> 00:49:39,660
Academia

1135
00:49:43,790 --> 00:49:41,940
do you see a need to go beyond what you

1136
00:49:46,250 --> 00:49:43,800
mentioned earlier that is the type of

1137
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:46,260
census we have right now which are based

1138
00:49:49,550 --> 00:49:48,000
on National Security threats and certain

1139
00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:49,560
phenomenologies and frequency range of

1140
00:49:52,490 --> 00:49:50,880
these kinds of things

1141
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:52,500
do you see a reason of going beyond that

1142
00:49:56,930 --> 00:49:55,200
yep absolutely what what are some of the

1143
00:49:57,650 --> 00:49:56,940
challenges there materials that will

1144
00:50:00,290 --> 00:49:57,660
happen

1145
00:50:03,130 --> 00:50:00,300
so can we go back to the front slide

1146
00:50:05,290 --> 00:50:03,140
just the first slide where the target

1147
00:50:08,690 --> 00:50:05,300
characterization is

1148
00:50:10,730 --> 00:50:08,700
so we've we've purpose built a couple of

1149
00:50:12,530 --> 00:50:10,740
of sensors

1150
00:50:15,470 --> 00:50:12,540
to do search

1151
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:15,480
across that no down one there you go

1152
00:50:19,970 --> 00:50:18,240
that's great but to go down some of

1153
00:50:25,210 --> 00:50:19,980
those characteristics to see if we can

1154
00:50:29,569 --> 00:50:25,220
find them correlated to Pilot reporting

1155
00:50:31,370 --> 00:50:29,579
some of those are initially this is

1156
00:50:33,410 --> 00:50:31,380
going to be I'm going to say this is a

1157
00:50:36,410 --> 00:50:33,420
bootstrap method right we're doing a

1158
00:50:39,650 --> 00:50:36,420
broad spectrum search across very few

1159
00:50:42,290 --> 00:50:39,660
indicators that we can point to that

1160
00:50:46,370 --> 00:50:42,300
will enable us to get a little bit more

1161
00:50:49,370 --> 00:50:46,380
data refine that narrow Those sensors

1162
00:50:52,250 --> 00:50:49,380
and and and go from there so we aren't

1163
00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:52,260
just relying on the dod and IC sensors

1164
00:50:56,210 --> 00:50:54,720
that exist today because frankly they

1165
00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:56,220
don't point to where we want them to

1166
00:51:00,109 --> 00:50:58,319
point right I mean I'll be frank with

1167
00:51:04,309 --> 00:51:00,119
with everyone

1168
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:04,319
we we can point the largest

1169
00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:08,400
collection apparatus in the entire Globe

1170
00:51:12,290 --> 00:51:10,800
at any point we want

1171
00:51:13,549 --> 00:51:12,300
you just have to tell me where I want to

1172
00:51:15,890 --> 00:51:13,559
point it

1173
00:51:19,130 --> 00:51:15,900
second piece of that is a lot of what we

1174
00:51:20,510 --> 00:51:19,140
have is is around the continental United

1175
00:51:24,010 --> 00:51:20,520
States

1176
00:51:27,829 --> 00:51:24,020
most people including the government

1177
00:51:30,890 --> 00:51:27,839
don't like it when I point our entire

1178
00:51:34,549 --> 00:51:30,900
collection apparatus to your backyard

1179
00:51:36,290 --> 00:51:34,559
right it's it's not allowed we have some

1180
00:51:39,170 --> 00:51:36,300
laws about that and we've got to figure

1181
00:51:41,510 --> 00:51:39,180
out how to do this only in the areas

1182
00:51:44,150 --> 00:51:41,520
that that I can get high confidence

1183
00:51:46,370 --> 00:51:44,160
there's going to be something there

1184
00:51:48,650 --> 00:51:46,380
and high confidence I'm not going to

1185
00:51:50,809 --> 00:51:48,660
break any laws doing it

1186
00:51:52,609 --> 00:51:50,819
so there's a there's a trade there so

1187
00:51:55,130 --> 00:51:52,619
some of these ground-based Point

1188
00:51:57,490 --> 00:51:55,140
detectors are going to be necessary for

1189
00:52:00,410 --> 00:51:57,500
that to point up to point out to search

1190
00:52:03,370 --> 00:52:00,420
coupled with we're evaluating a number

1191
00:52:06,069 --> 00:52:03,380
of sensor opportunities across different

1192
00:52:08,690 --> 00:52:06,079
organizations Academia

1193
00:52:11,390 --> 00:52:08,700
industry whatnot that that already exist

1194
00:52:13,490 --> 00:52:11,400
or are being built for similar purposes

1195
00:52:16,849 --> 00:52:13,500
or maybe other purposes that I might be

1196
00:52:19,430 --> 00:52:16,859
able to recalibrate for this and see if

1197
00:52:21,349 --> 00:52:19,440
those will have a chance of of seeing

1198
00:52:23,990 --> 00:52:21,359
that Target right so that's where the

1199
00:52:26,150 --> 00:52:24,000
modeling and Sim comes in can I can I

1200
00:52:28,430 --> 00:52:26,160
take that Target put it into your sensor

1201
00:52:33,589 --> 00:52:28,440
and have a chance of seeing it

1202
00:52:38,930 --> 00:52:35,150
oh wait

1203
00:52:43,309 --> 00:52:41,809
thanks Sean I have the questions you

1204
00:52:45,410 --> 00:52:43,319
probably don't want which are about

1205
00:52:46,609 --> 00:52:45,420
numbers unless I miss them during your

1206
00:52:48,650 --> 00:52:46,619
presentation

1207
00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:48,660
uh you had said that only a very small

1208
00:52:51,950 --> 00:52:49,920
percentage of your cases display

1209
00:52:53,690 --> 00:52:51,960
signatures that could be anomalous and

1210
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:53,700
then follow that up with the few objects

1211
00:52:58,370 --> 00:52:55,760
that do demonstrate potentially

1212
00:53:00,710 --> 00:52:58,380
anomalous characteristics

1213
00:53:02,930 --> 00:53:00,720
what numbers are we talking about how

1214
00:53:05,089 --> 00:53:02,940
big is your database how many years was

1215
00:53:08,150 --> 00:53:05,099
it collected over and uh were those

1216
00:53:09,770 --> 00:53:08,160
observations made and then by few what

1217
00:53:13,910 --> 00:53:09,780
do you mean right no that's a great

1218
00:53:16,730 --> 00:53:13,920
question uh so this chart as I mentioned

1219
00:53:20,930 --> 00:53:16,740
we've updated with our current uh data

1220
00:53:22,690 --> 00:53:20,940
Holdings at the time of my open hearing

1221
00:53:24,370 --> 00:53:22,700
we were at

1222
00:53:28,990 --> 00:53:24,380
650

1223
00:53:32,630 --> 00:53:29,000
cases-ish we are now over 800.

1224
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:32,640
we are putting together our annual

1225
00:53:40,370 --> 00:53:37,200
report which will be due August 1 to the

1226
00:53:42,290 --> 00:53:40,380
hill and in it and there will be an

1227
00:53:44,569 --> 00:53:42,300
unclassified version as there always has

1228
00:53:46,370 --> 00:53:44,579
been we will have those updated numbers

1229
00:53:48,589 --> 00:53:46,380
at that time

1230
00:53:50,930 --> 00:53:48,599
we roughly get I mean you can do the

1231
00:53:54,430 --> 00:53:50,940
math you know it depends anywhere from

1232
00:53:58,069 --> 00:53:54,440
from 50 to

1233
00:54:00,049 --> 00:53:58,079
100-ish new reports a month now the

1234
00:54:02,750 --> 00:54:00,059
reason we had such a big jumper recently

1235
00:54:04,910 --> 00:54:02,760
is because I got faa's data integrated

1236
00:54:08,510 --> 00:54:04,920
in finally and so we ended up with like

1237
00:54:10,309 --> 00:54:08,520
100 and some odd new cases

1238
00:54:13,309 --> 00:54:10,319
um so there's there's a reason why it's

1239
00:54:17,089 --> 00:54:13,319
going to fluctuate the numbers that I

1240
00:54:20,829 --> 00:54:19,130
we're gonna we're gonna try to do a

1241
00:54:23,450 --> 00:54:20,839
little more uh

1242
00:54:24,710 --> 00:54:23,460
Fidelity on some of the analytics when

1243
00:54:28,250 --> 00:54:24,720
we report out

1244
00:54:29,990 --> 00:54:28,260
but the numbers I would say that we see

1245
00:54:38,089 --> 00:54:30,000
are

1246
00:54:40,910 --> 00:54:38,099
single digit percentages of those that

1247
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:40,920
total database so maybe

1248
00:54:56,270 --> 00:54:54,890
I'll stand up because I'm on the other

1249
00:54:58,130 --> 00:54:56,280
end of the room

1250
00:55:00,049 --> 00:54:58,140
um thanks Sean for your presentation and

1251
00:55:01,430 --> 00:55:00,059
for the some of the video footage that

1252
00:55:03,410 --> 00:55:01,440
we saw

1253
00:55:05,329 --> 00:55:03,420
um while we're all good scientists on

1254
00:55:07,190 --> 00:55:05,339
this panel I think that I look at it

1255
00:55:10,130 --> 00:55:07,200
with an untrained eye of looking at that

1256
00:55:12,230 --> 00:55:10,140
video and so I see three spots moving

1257
00:55:14,809 --> 00:55:12,240
and everything else in the background

1258
00:55:16,609 --> 00:55:14,819
looks like it's stable can you talk a

1259
00:55:18,170 --> 00:55:16,619
little bit more about either the sensor

1260
00:55:20,089 --> 00:55:18,180
platform or what we're seeing that's

1261
00:55:22,370 --> 00:55:20,099
stable in the background because they've

1262
00:55:25,670 --> 00:55:22,380
been identified as airplanes

1263
00:55:28,190 --> 00:55:25,680
um and there's clear description of of

1264
00:55:30,530 --> 00:55:28,200
from other data sources that came in to

1265
00:55:33,170 --> 00:55:30,540
help clarify that but when I look at

1266
00:55:34,309 --> 00:55:33,180
this what are all of the white spots in

1267
00:55:35,450 --> 00:55:34,319
the background that we're seeing that

1268
00:55:38,390 --> 00:55:35,460
are stable

1269
00:55:40,250 --> 00:55:38,400
so those are these that's a star

1270
00:55:47,329 --> 00:55:40,260
background

1271
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:47,339
now so you're looking at those planes

1272
00:55:49,910 --> 00:55:49,690
were roughly

1273
00:55:51,650 --> 00:55:49,920
[Music]

1274
00:55:54,890 --> 00:55:51,660
um

1275
00:55:57,049 --> 00:55:54,900
30 to 40-ish miles away if I remember

1276
00:56:00,010 --> 00:55:57,059
correctly and when you see that smaller

1277
00:56:03,230 --> 00:56:00,020
plane that comes in at the bottom

1278
00:56:04,849 --> 00:56:03,240
that one was much much closer it was

1279
00:56:08,390 --> 00:56:04,859
like maybe

1280
00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:08,400
six to ten miles away

1281
00:56:16,930 --> 00:56:12,240
right and so the Jitter in the sensor is

1282
00:56:21,470 --> 00:56:19,790
right okay so the three spots because

1283
00:56:25,130 --> 00:56:21,480
they look like they're moving at about

1284
00:56:28,250 --> 00:56:25,140
the same right they are right and and if

1285
00:56:30,710 --> 00:56:28,260
they were flying together but they're

1286
00:56:33,829 --> 00:56:30,720
not is what I'm hearing they're in the

1287
00:56:35,809 --> 00:56:33,839
center they're in a flight line right so

1288
00:56:38,270 --> 00:56:35,819
they're equally spaced in a flight line

1289
00:56:44,349 --> 00:56:38,280
and the sensor is jittering thank you

1290
00:56:49,010 --> 00:56:46,609
okay if you go to your first slide if

1291
00:56:52,549 --> 00:56:49,020
you don't mind not the title slide but

1292
00:56:54,829 --> 00:56:52,559
the the trends the trends yeah

1293
00:56:57,349 --> 00:56:54,839
um it's the previous slide there you go

1294
00:56:58,849 --> 00:56:57,359
thank you so I want to make sure I

1295
00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:58,859
understand the slide it says typically

1296
00:57:02,390 --> 00:57:00,960
reported characteristics and there are a

1297
00:57:06,349 --> 00:57:02,400
bunch of things here like for example

1298
00:57:09,710 --> 00:57:06,359
size altitude speed if it's being

1299
00:57:12,349 --> 00:57:09,720
observed from a single sensor

1300
00:57:13,790 --> 00:57:12,359
use the example of like the airplanes

1301
00:57:15,170 --> 00:57:13,800
that were coming in and if you don't

1302
00:57:16,970 --> 00:57:15,180
know how far away they are how do you

1303
00:57:18,589 --> 00:57:16,980
assess the size how do you assess the

1304
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:18,599
speed

1305
00:57:22,010 --> 00:57:19,440
um

1306
00:57:24,290 --> 00:57:22,020
this is what people would report but it

1307
00:57:26,089 --> 00:57:24,300
isn't necessarily what is the real size

1308
00:57:28,190 --> 00:57:26,099
of the object or the speed or the rest

1309
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:28,200
of it do I understand that correctly

1310
00:57:34,130 --> 00:57:31,440
partially okay so you this is not all

1311
00:57:36,849 --> 00:57:34,140
single sensor observations some of these

1312
00:57:41,030 --> 00:57:36,859
are very much multi-sensor observations

1313
00:57:43,910 --> 00:57:41,040
and this is parameterized to cover the

1314
00:57:47,569 --> 00:57:43,920
range of things for any given parameter

1315
00:57:50,750 --> 00:57:47,579
range of of what's possible and what is

1316
00:57:53,750 --> 00:57:50,760
been observed okay and then on the next

1317
00:57:56,150 --> 00:57:53,760
Slide the one where you've got the or is

1318
00:57:57,950 --> 00:57:56,160
the meatball moving across the the

1319
00:57:58,670 --> 00:57:57,960
screen that one

1320
00:58:01,190 --> 00:57:58,680
um

1321
00:58:05,329 --> 00:58:01,200
so

1322
00:58:09,309 --> 00:58:05,339
was there any look at

1323
00:58:11,630 --> 00:58:09,319
sensor artifact data processing artifact

1324
00:58:13,670 --> 00:58:11,640
I mean

1325
00:58:15,890 --> 00:58:13,680
the first thing that whenever I say

1326
00:58:18,290 --> 00:58:15,900
anything that's anomalous I look at how

1327
00:58:21,770 --> 00:58:18,300
is the data collected yeah

1328
00:58:24,470 --> 00:58:21,780
so yes these are these are um so this is

1329
00:58:29,030 --> 00:58:24,480
an EO sensor on an MQ-9

1330
00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:29,040
and we understand that very very well

1331
00:58:37,309 --> 00:58:31,920
that is that is a real object

1332
00:58:37,319 --> 00:58:43,870
and memory

1333
00:58:49,490 --> 00:58:47,270
techniques or existing data sets or

1334
00:58:51,829 --> 00:58:49,500
possibly some of them are open source

1335
00:58:55,010 --> 00:58:51,839
can you explain a little bit more what

1336
00:58:59,089 --> 00:58:55,020
kind of AIML techniques you are using

1337
00:59:01,370 --> 00:58:59,099
um are these about anomaly detection or

1338
00:59:04,970 --> 00:59:01,380
through natural processing or using

1339
00:59:07,130 --> 00:59:04,980
anything related to computer vision

1340
00:59:08,329 --> 00:59:07,140
so we're looking at a number of

1341
00:59:10,670 --> 00:59:08,339
different

1342
00:59:13,990 --> 00:59:10,680
capabilities that span I think a lot of

1343
00:59:16,430 --> 00:59:14,000
what you've just said so we've got

1344
00:59:18,589 --> 00:59:16,440
we haven't applied it yet we are

1345
00:59:21,049 --> 00:59:18,599
researching how we're going to apply it

1346
00:59:23,630 --> 00:59:21,059
so natural language processing for the

1347
00:59:24,589 --> 00:59:23,640
reports from the pilots absolutely all

1348
00:59:27,470 --> 00:59:24,599
right

1349
00:59:30,289 --> 00:59:27,480
Target recognition so I can train a

1350
00:59:32,750 --> 00:59:30,299
model to look for that thing and go back

1351
00:59:35,870 --> 00:59:32,760
through all of our Holdings and go give

1352
00:59:37,069 --> 00:59:35,880
me how many of these you have right

1353
00:59:40,609 --> 00:59:37,079
and then try to figure out what those

1354
00:59:42,410 --> 00:59:40,619
are right so I have not put anything out

1355
00:59:45,309 --> 00:59:42,420
there yet or have not looked at anything

1356
00:59:50,569 --> 00:59:45,319
yet for

1357
00:59:52,430 --> 00:59:50,579
active targeting in real time because I

1358
00:59:54,710 --> 00:59:52,440
don't know exactly what I would train it

1359
00:59:57,470 --> 00:59:54,720
to go look for I just know what we have

1360
01:00:00,650 --> 00:59:57,480
so I want to get more confidence on what

1361
01:00:03,230 --> 01:00:00,660
we have before I go and do that except

1362
01:00:10,309 --> 01:00:03,240
for balloons right we're trying to get

1363
01:00:13,670 --> 01:00:12,410
so Sean I just wanted to begin by

1364
01:00:15,289 --> 01:00:13,680
thanking you for your service to this

1365
01:00:17,569 --> 01:00:15,299
nation this committee you don't exactly

1366
01:00:19,370 --> 01:00:17,579
have the easiest job in Washington no I

1367
01:00:20,690 --> 01:00:19,380
do not appreciate it I'm glad I don't

1368
01:00:23,450 --> 01:00:20,700
recognize that

1369
01:00:25,370 --> 01:00:23,460
certainly do I also want to commend you

1370
01:00:27,710 --> 01:00:25,380
noting the international Partnerships

1371
01:00:29,690 --> 01:00:27,720
Spain just signed the Artemis Accords

1372
01:00:32,450 --> 01:00:29,700
yesterday increasing the membership to

1373
01:00:35,150 --> 01:00:32,460
25 I think that's a global partnership

1374
01:00:37,069 --> 01:00:35,160
that you could leverage only 170 more

1375
01:00:41,089 --> 01:00:37,079
countries to go now excellent everyone

1376
01:00:43,069 --> 01:00:41,099
signed up I just have two questions one

1377
01:00:46,270 --> 01:00:43,079
relative to what Nadia was asking you

1378
01:00:49,010 --> 01:00:46,280
about the number of anomalous phenomena

1379
01:00:50,750 --> 01:00:49,020
what makes it anomalous in your view

1380
01:00:53,510 --> 01:00:50,760
what is the phenomenology where you're

1381
01:00:56,329 --> 01:00:53,520
pulling those cases out and saying this

1382
01:00:58,069 --> 01:00:56,339
is truly unexplained and then my second

1383
01:01:01,190 --> 01:00:58,079
question would be relative to the stigma

1384
01:01:03,109 --> 01:01:01,200
how damaging is that in your view and

1385
01:01:06,289 --> 01:01:03,119
what in particular do you think NASA can

1386
01:01:07,670 --> 01:01:06,299
do to help remedy the situation

1387
01:01:09,650 --> 01:01:07,680
that's a great question so I'm going to

1388
01:01:11,770 --> 01:01:09,660
take the second one first because I know

1389
01:01:14,390 --> 01:01:11,780
we're getting short on time

1390
01:01:17,210 --> 01:01:14,400
the the stigma has improved

1391
01:01:19,549 --> 01:01:17,220
significantly over the years since the

1392
01:01:21,230 --> 01:01:19,559
Navy first took this on

1393
01:01:24,109 --> 01:01:21,240
some years ago

1394
01:01:27,430 --> 01:01:24,119
it is not gone and in fact I would argue

1395
01:01:29,990 --> 01:01:27,440
the stigma exists inside

1396
01:01:34,549 --> 01:01:30,000
the leadership of all of our our

1397
01:01:35,809 --> 01:01:34,559
buildings right wherever that is

1398
01:01:38,569 --> 01:01:35,819
um

1399
01:01:41,150 --> 01:01:38,579
uh my team and I have also been subject

1400
01:01:44,030 --> 01:01:41,160
to lots of harassment especially coming

1401
01:01:46,010 --> 01:01:44,040
out of my last hearing because people

1402
01:01:48,109 --> 01:01:46,020
don't understand the scientific method

1403
01:01:49,549 --> 01:01:48,119
and why it does why we have to do the

1404
01:01:51,410 --> 01:01:49,559
things we have to do

1405
01:01:54,049 --> 01:01:51,420
all right and because we can't just come

1406
01:01:56,329 --> 01:01:54,059
out and say you know the greatest the

1407
01:01:58,069 --> 01:01:56,339
greatest thing that could happen to me

1408
01:02:00,410 --> 01:01:58,079
is I could come out and say hey I know

1409
01:02:02,690 --> 01:02:00,420
where all these things are here you go

1410
01:02:04,370 --> 01:02:02,700
all right but I don't right and it's

1411
01:02:05,870 --> 01:02:04,380
going to take us time to research all

1412
01:02:06,950 --> 01:02:05,880
that

1413
01:02:11,089 --> 01:02:06,960
um

1414
01:02:14,510 --> 01:02:11,099
people want answers now and so they are

1415
01:02:17,270 --> 01:02:14,520
they're actually feeding the stigma by

1416
01:02:19,670 --> 01:02:17,280
by exhibiting that kind of behavior to

1417
01:02:22,130 --> 01:02:19,680
all of us right that is that is a bad

1418
01:02:24,650 --> 01:02:22,140
thing where can NASA help I made that

1419
01:02:26,750 --> 01:02:24,660
recommendation on NASA should lead to

1420
01:02:28,309 --> 01:02:26,760
Scientific discourse we need to elevate

1421
01:02:30,049 --> 01:02:28,319
this conversation

1422
01:02:32,990 --> 01:02:30,059
all right we need to have this

1423
01:02:34,910 --> 01:02:33,000
conversation in an open environment like

1424
01:02:35,990 --> 01:02:34,920
this where we aren't going to get

1425
01:02:38,569 --> 01:02:36,000
harassed

1426
01:02:40,190 --> 01:02:38,579
because this is a hard problem it is a

1427
01:02:43,490 --> 01:02:40,200
hard target problem we need to

1428
01:02:46,309 --> 01:02:43,500
understand what is the things that are

1429
01:02:48,770 --> 01:02:46,319
in all of our domains space or air or

1430
01:02:52,010 --> 01:02:48,780
undersea and how do we make sense of

1431
01:02:57,530 --> 01:02:54,230
your first question on what makes it

1432
01:02:59,750 --> 01:02:57,540
anomalous to me we actually developed

1433
01:03:01,609 --> 01:02:59,760
some definitions on all of these things

1434
01:03:03,349 --> 01:03:01,619
we gave it both to the White House and

1435
01:03:05,390 --> 01:03:03,359
to Congress I think we've got some of

1436
01:03:08,089 --> 01:03:05,400
that into law now but essentially

1437
01:03:09,250 --> 01:03:08,099
anomalous is anything that is not

1438
01:03:12,829 --> 01:03:09,260
readily

1439
01:03:16,130 --> 01:03:12,839
understandable by the operator or the

1440
01:03:20,870 --> 01:03:18,950
right so it is doing something weird

1441
01:03:23,809 --> 01:03:20,880
whether that's maneuvering

1442
01:03:26,990 --> 01:03:23,819
Against the Wind at Mach 2 with no

1443
01:03:27,650 --> 01:03:27,000
apparent propulsion or it's

1444
01:03:31,010 --> 01:03:27,660
um

1445
01:03:32,510 --> 01:03:31,020
going into the water which we have we

1446
01:03:35,630 --> 01:03:32,520
have shown is not the case that is

1447
01:03:37,370 --> 01:03:35,640
actually a sensor anomaly um that we've

1448
01:03:39,250 --> 01:03:37,380
now figured out and we're going to be

1449
01:03:42,589 --> 01:03:39,260
publishing all that

1450
01:03:47,270 --> 01:03:42,599
you know those kinds of things

1451
01:03:49,789 --> 01:03:47,280
make anomalous signature uh we'll call

1452
01:03:52,370 --> 01:03:49,799
it signature management but it's things

1453
01:03:54,309 --> 01:03:52,380
that are

1454
01:03:57,470 --> 01:03:54,319
not

1455
01:03:59,089 --> 01:03:57,480
readily understandable in the context of

1456
01:04:00,109 --> 01:03:59,099
hey I've got a thing that's out in the

1457
01:04:02,030 --> 01:04:00,119
light

1458
01:04:02,870 --> 01:04:02,040
it should reflect a certain amount of

1459
01:04:04,490 --> 01:04:02,880
light

1460
01:04:08,450 --> 01:04:04,500
if it doesn't reflect that amount of

1461
01:04:12,770 --> 01:04:09,710
I think we have time for one last

1462
01:04:19,309 --> 01:04:15,770
I did uh foreign partnership with NASA

1463
01:04:20,750 --> 01:04:19,319
I'm curious especially given your map uh

1464
01:04:22,370 --> 01:04:20,760
have you as Aero partnered with

1465
01:04:26,510 --> 01:04:22,380
International agencies and those are

1466
01:04:28,370 --> 01:04:26,520
ways for reporting to your

1467
01:04:31,069 --> 01:04:28,380
so that's a great question I want to

1468
01:04:35,510 --> 01:04:31,079
expound on that just a little bit so I

1469
01:04:37,630 --> 01:04:35,520
have just held our first five eyes Forum

1470
01:04:40,490 --> 01:04:37,640
on this subject

1471
01:04:43,609 --> 01:04:40,500
last week I think it was or earlier this

1472
01:04:44,750 --> 01:04:43,619
week I don't know Dan was there uh and

1473
01:04:49,849 --> 01:04:44,760
we

1474
01:04:52,130 --> 01:04:49,859
into discussions with our partners on

1475
01:04:54,170 --> 01:04:52,140
data sharing how do they do reporting

1476
01:04:56,150 --> 01:04:54,180
what kind of analysis can they help us

1477
01:04:57,950 --> 01:04:56,160
with what kind of calibration can they

1478
01:05:00,349 --> 01:04:57,960
help us with what can we help them with

1479
01:05:03,289 --> 01:05:00,359
and we're establishing all of that right

1480
01:05:05,630 --> 01:05:03,299
now and they're going to end up you know

1481
01:05:08,510 --> 01:05:05,640
sending their information and data to us

1482
01:05:10,670 --> 01:05:08,520
to feed into the process that we've laid

1483
01:05:12,770 --> 01:05:10,680
out for how we're going to to do all

1484
01:05:13,549 --> 01:05:12,780
this

1485
01:05:16,910 --> 01:05:13,559
um

1486
01:05:19,010 --> 01:05:16,920
beyond that I have not had either the

1487
01:05:22,250 --> 01:05:19,020
time or the bandwidth to do and that's

1488
01:05:23,890 --> 01:05:22,260
why I would look to NASA to expand the

1489
01:05:26,510 --> 01:05:23,900
scientific and and

1490
01:05:29,990 --> 01:05:26,520
academic relationships that they have

1491
01:05:33,109 --> 01:05:30,000
across all of our allies and partners on

1492
01:05:35,569 --> 01:05:33,119
how can we bring them into the fold

1493
01:05:39,470 --> 01:05:35,579
that's where I think there's a lot of

1494
01:05:43,370 --> 01:05:40,069
um

1495
01:05:45,470 --> 01:05:43,380
great uh thank you one just

1496
01:05:48,589 --> 01:05:45,480
clarifications for people who don't know

1497
01:05:49,849 --> 01:05:48,599
what are the five eyes oh I'm sorry now

1498
01:05:51,890 --> 01:05:49,859
for those of you that aren't familiar

1499
01:05:54,829 --> 01:05:51,900
with the five eyes those are uh that's

1500
01:05:56,690 --> 01:05:54,839
the UK Canada

1501
01:05:59,990 --> 01:05:56,700
um Australia New Zealand and the United

1502
01:06:02,750 --> 01:06:00,000
States so those are the five partners

1503
01:06:10,549 --> 01:06:02,760
terrific so thank you very much thank

1504
01:06:17,030 --> 01:06:12,530
so our next presentation is from Mike

1505
01:06:25,370 --> 01:06:17,040
free on from the FAA talking about the

1506
01:06:28,730 --> 01:06:27,049
would like to thank the panel for the

1507
01:06:31,309 --> 01:06:28,740
opportunity to come and give an overview

1508
01:06:34,549 --> 01:06:31,319
of FAA and and some data points around

1509
01:06:37,130 --> 01:06:34,559
the faa's mission the data the fa

1510
01:06:39,589 --> 01:06:37,140
provides to provide the framing of what

1511
01:06:41,930 --> 01:06:39,599
are the surveillance systems that we can

1512
01:06:44,390 --> 01:06:41,940
bring to bear or there's data around

1513
01:06:46,430 --> 01:06:44,400
Those sensors as well as to frame the

1514
01:06:48,170 --> 01:06:46,440
limitations of those I know Sean talked

1515
01:06:50,329 --> 01:06:48,180
about some of the data points that uh

1516
01:06:51,470 --> 01:06:50,339
that are used and being integrated so

1517
01:06:54,049 --> 01:06:51,480
hopefully this will give you an overview

1518
01:06:58,609 --> 01:06:54,059
of the fa's mission as well as as well

1519
01:07:04,370 --> 01:07:01,609
so the the fa's mission is is quite

1520
01:07:07,069 --> 01:07:04,380
large and complex by by a factor of two

1521
01:07:09,289 --> 01:07:07,079
we operate uh more commercial aircraft

1522
01:07:11,510 --> 01:07:09,299
than any other country I think we're

1523
01:07:13,430 --> 01:07:11,520
second only to Australia in total

1524
01:07:16,250 --> 01:07:13,440
airspace but largely because Australia

1525
01:07:18,650 --> 01:07:16,260
has a very large Oceanic volume that

1526
01:07:21,650 --> 01:07:18,660
they're responsible for for managing so

1527
01:07:23,089 --> 01:07:21,660
it is very complex very large National

1528
01:07:27,109 --> 01:07:23,099
airspace system

1529
01:07:30,109 --> 01:07:27,119
we have over 14 000 controllers uh 520

1530
01:07:33,470 --> 01:07:30,119
Air Traffic Control Towers which are

1531
01:07:35,870 --> 01:07:33,480
located at the the highest density of

1532
01:07:38,569 --> 01:07:35,880
airports and I'll referred to those as

1533
01:07:41,930 --> 01:07:38,579
towers and and subsequent slides

1534
01:07:44,089 --> 01:07:41,940
we have 147 what we call terminal radar

1535
01:07:46,609 --> 01:07:44,099
approach controls or traycons and those

1536
01:07:49,010 --> 01:07:46,619
are manned um

1537
01:07:50,630 --> 01:07:49,020
control facilities at the high and

1538
01:07:53,390 --> 01:07:50,640
medium density airports around the

1539
01:07:55,789 --> 01:07:53,400
nation as well as 21 air Route traffic

1540
01:07:57,589 --> 01:07:55,799
control centers which are which manage

1541
01:07:59,329 --> 01:07:57,599
the control of air traffic in the

1542
01:08:02,870 --> 01:07:59,339
enroute environment

1543
01:08:05,450 --> 01:08:02,880
there's 19 000 over 19 000 airports five

1544
01:08:08,210 --> 01:08:05,460
thousand over five thousand of those are

1545
01:08:10,910 --> 01:08:08,220
associated to public airports with the

1546
01:08:12,710 --> 01:08:10,920
remaining fourteen thousand plus private

1547
01:08:17,090 --> 01:08:12,720
airports

1548
01:08:22,729 --> 01:08:20,209
so the faa's mission is primarily around

1549
01:08:24,470 --> 01:08:22,739
safe and efficient control of manned

1550
01:08:26,510 --> 01:08:24,480
aircraft that has been her our

1551
01:08:28,789 --> 01:08:26,520
historical Mission and and remains our

1552
01:08:31,309 --> 01:08:28,799
primary Mission certainly as we talk

1553
01:08:32,749 --> 01:08:31,319
about a new entrance with uas's and

1554
01:08:35,689 --> 01:08:32,759
Advanced Air mobility and some of those

1555
01:08:37,910 --> 01:08:35,699
things there will be an evolution of the

1556
01:08:41,050 --> 01:08:37,920
fa's mission to include safe operation

1557
01:08:44,269 --> 01:08:41,060
of the nas with those those new entrants

1558
01:08:47,150 --> 01:08:44,279
but the architecture and design of the

1559
01:08:49,910 --> 01:08:47,160
Nas is is geared around safe and

1560
01:08:50,890 --> 01:08:49,920
efficient control of aircraft and manned

1561
01:08:54,470 --> 01:08:50,900
aircraft

1562
01:08:56,030 --> 01:08:54,480
the certainly the the commercial aspect

1563
01:08:57,829 --> 01:08:56,040
the commercial flights are a primary

1564
01:09:02,390 --> 01:08:57,839
focus of the agency we certainly support

1565
01:09:04,669 --> 01:09:02,400
general aviation and flights as well

1566
01:09:06,530 --> 01:09:04,679
um but again our mission is around main

1567
01:09:09,470 --> 01:09:06,540
aircraft and safe and an efficient

1568
01:09:12,950 --> 01:09:09,480
operation of those

1569
01:09:16,570 --> 01:09:12,960
um the uh by the Numbers uh over 16

1570
01:09:19,910 --> 01:09:16,580
million flights yearly uh 5400 flights

1571
01:09:22,910 --> 01:09:19,920
uh at Peak any given uh at the peak the

1572
01:09:26,689 --> 01:09:22,920
time of any given day uh 45

1573
01:09:29,749 --> 01:09:26,699
000 daily flights uh 25 million GA

1574
01:09:32,990 --> 01:09:29,759
flight hours per year a very large very

1575
01:09:35,269 --> 01:09:33,000
complex operation that that we're

1576
01:09:37,849 --> 01:09:35,279
responsible for managing we certainly

1577
01:09:40,430 --> 01:09:37,859
provide a significant contribution to to

1578
01:09:42,590 --> 01:09:40,440
that for the service to to the nation in

1579
01:09:44,749 --> 01:09:42,600
the form of uh you know product uh

1580
01:09:48,709 --> 01:09:44,759
toward a GDP

1581
01:09:53,689 --> 01:09:51,829
so as we get into the discussion of

1582
01:09:55,850 --> 01:09:53,699
surveillance Services I want to provide

1583
01:09:57,350 --> 01:09:55,860
a little bit of framework around the

1584
01:09:59,870 --> 01:09:57,360
categorization of our surveillance

1585
01:10:02,570 --> 01:09:59,880
services and we primarily break those

1586
01:10:04,729 --> 01:10:02,580
into two two bodies The Cooperative

1587
01:10:07,430 --> 01:10:04,739
surveillance which is defined by a

1588
01:10:09,470 --> 01:10:07,440
sensor that's avionics or equipment on

1589
01:10:12,890 --> 01:10:09,480
board the aircraft that works in

1590
01:10:15,590 --> 01:10:12,900
conjunction with ground-based sensors

1591
01:10:17,390 --> 01:10:15,600
the non-cooperative surveillance is

1592
01:10:19,669 --> 01:10:17,400
independent this is basically the

1593
01:10:22,550 --> 01:10:19,679
classic radar RF energy is transmitted

1594
01:10:24,770 --> 01:10:22,560
out reflects off the Target and we

1595
01:10:26,209 --> 01:10:24,780
receive a signal and from that return we

1596
01:10:28,550 --> 01:10:26,219
can determine where that their their

1597
01:10:30,770 --> 01:10:28,560
that aircraft is

1598
01:10:32,570 --> 01:10:30,780
typically these cooperative and

1599
01:10:35,330 --> 01:10:32,580
non-cooperative sensors are co-located

1600
01:10:37,669 --> 01:10:35,340
together one The Cooperative mounted on

1601
01:10:39,470 --> 01:10:37,679
top of the non-cooperative radar

1602
01:10:41,570 --> 01:10:39,480
so for the purpose from a data

1603
01:10:44,209 --> 01:10:41,580
perspective I think in this this panel

1604
01:10:46,310 --> 01:10:44,219
in the study I I think that the

1605
01:10:50,030 --> 01:10:46,320
Cooperative sensors those are neither

1606
01:10:52,970 --> 01:10:50,040
unknown or anomalous so for the purposes

1607
01:10:55,010 --> 01:10:52,980
of this this briefing or the rest of

1608
01:10:58,070 --> 01:10:55,020
this briefing I'm going to focus on the

1609
01:11:02,510 --> 01:10:58,080
the non-cooperative aspect

1610
01:11:08,450 --> 01:11:06,110
so the again from the standpoint of the

1611
01:11:10,610 --> 01:11:08,460
mission of the FAA around it again is is

1612
01:11:12,290 --> 01:11:10,620
primarily around manned aircraft and I

1613
01:11:15,110 --> 01:11:12,300
think that serves as an important

1614
01:11:16,669 --> 01:11:15,120
framework for the data points and the

1615
01:11:18,470 --> 01:11:16,679
type of data that we can bring to bear

1616
01:11:21,350 --> 01:11:18,480
for this panel

1617
01:11:22,810 --> 01:11:21,360
so we break our our systems and the

1618
01:11:25,250 --> 01:11:22,820
design of the systems into different

1619
01:11:28,030 --> 01:11:25,260
types of systems so we have short range

1620
01:11:31,970 --> 01:11:28,040
Radars which are typically located at

1621
01:11:34,310 --> 01:11:31,980
the high and medium density airports and

1622
01:11:36,350 --> 01:11:34,320
those operate from a range I have a

1623
01:11:38,689 --> 01:11:36,360
detection range between 40 and 60 miles

1624
01:11:41,149 --> 01:11:38,699
and an altitude detection capability of

1625
01:11:43,729 --> 01:11:41,159
about 24 000 feet

1626
01:11:45,770 --> 01:11:43,739
the long-range radar systems have a

1627
01:11:49,370 --> 01:11:45,780
detection range of 2 to 250 nautical

1628
01:11:51,470 --> 01:11:49,380
miles with altitude detection up to 100

1629
01:11:54,229 --> 01:11:51,480
000 feet so that provides the basic the

1630
01:11:56,810 --> 01:11:54,239
framework for for those I will mention

1631
01:11:59,630 --> 01:11:56,820
uh the automatic dependent surveillance

1632
01:12:02,330 --> 01:11:59,640
broadcast or adsb only from a context

1633
01:12:04,669 --> 01:12:02,340
that that does serve as a primary data

1634
01:12:06,770 --> 01:12:04,679
source and preferred data source for the

1635
01:12:08,689 --> 01:12:06,780
management of the airspace system but it

1636
01:12:10,729 --> 01:12:08,699
is a Cooperative system and for the

1637
01:12:12,410 --> 01:12:10,739
purposes of the next slides as I get

1638
01:12:14,990 --> 01:12:12,420
into the discussion of the coverage and

1639
01:12:17,570 --> 01:12:15,000
the type of detection for those

1640
01:12:20,090 --> 01:12:17,580
non-cooperative targets it is not

1641
01:12:23,330 --> 01:12:20,100
considered as part of those

1642
01:12:24,770 --> 01:12:23,340
and also surface surveillance is also

1643
01:12:26,810 --> 01:12:24,780
something that we provide but again for

1644
01:12:28,070 --> 01:12:26,820
the purpose of the study I only include

1645
01:12:31,370 --> 01:12:28,080
those for just a completeness

1646
01:12:37,550 --> 01:12:34,250
the one final Point as I talk about

1647
01:12:40,130 --> 01:12:37,560
manned aircraft and primary emission

1648
01:12:42,470 --> 01:12:40,140
for the

1649
01:12:45,530 --> 01:12:42,480
drones and balloons and things of that

1650
01:12:48,050 --> 01:12:45,540
nature their basic premise is to operate

1651
01:12:49,550 --> 01:12:48,060
in a not to interfere basis that they

1652
01:12:52,250 --> 01:12:49,560
are not to interfere with the band

1653
01:12:54,649 --> 01:12:52,260
operations and that's that's a

1654
01:12:56,810 --> 01:12:54,659
fundamental aspect as we talk to the

1655
01:13:00,110 --> 01:12:56,820
data and what we can and can detect with

1656
01:13:01,790 --> 01:13:00,120
respect to those non-band non-band

1657
01:13:05,630 --> 01:13:01,800
systems

1658
01:13:09,550 --> 01:13:07,850
realizing this is an eye chart this I

1659
01:13:12,290 --> 01:13:09,560
would wanted to provide just a a

1660
01:13:15,530 --> 01:13:12,300
graphical or pictorial depiction of

1661
01:13:19,310 --> 01:13:15,540
where our sensors are located uh the

1662
01:13:21,890 --> 01:13:19,320
green blue and pink balloons if you will

1663
01:13:25,430 --> 01:13:21,900
uh represent our short range Radars

1664
01:13:28,430 --> 01:13:25,440
those are are located at airports those

1665
01:13:32,030 --> 01:13:28,440
are where those are are cited

1666
01:13:34,550 --> 01:13:32,040
the uh the two reddish balloons they

1667
01:13:36,950 --> 01:13:34,560
have letters in them a four and a c

1668
01:13:39,649 --> 01:13:36,960
those represent our long-range Radars

1669
01:13:42,830 --> 01:13:39,659
the Arthur fours and karser systems that

1670
01:13:44,630 --> 01:13:42,840
are used in in the context of both from

1671
01:13:46,550 --> 01:13:44,640
an air traffic control perspective as

1672
01:13:49,310 --> 01:13:46,560
well as for a National Defense and

1673
01:13:51,070 --> 01:13:49,320
Homeland Security emission

1674
01:13:54,050 --> 01:13:51,080
and the the

1675
01:13:55,370 --> 01:13:54,060
perimeter the Archer fours are located

1676
01:13:57,649 --> 01:13:55,380
around the perimeter of the country

1677
01:14:01,270 --> 01:13:57,659
equally spaced and the karser systems

1678
01:14:04,310 --> 01:14:01,280
are located on the interior of of the US

1679
01:14:07,729 --> 01:14:04,320
I will point out that this only depicts

1680
01:14:09,110 --> 01:14:07,739
the conus there are systems ATC both

1681
01:14:13,130 --> 01:14:09,120
short range and long-range systems

1682
01:14:15,649 --> 01:14:13,140
Hawaii Alaska and Caribbean

1683
01:14:16,729 --> 01:14:15,659
uh those are not depicted here

1684
01:14:19,250 --> 01:14:16,739
um I didn't think they were necessary

1685
01:14:21,050 --> 01:14:19,260
for the uh the the purpose of

1686
01:14:23,330 --> 01:14:21,060
understanding the surveillance

1687
01:14:24,830 --> 01:14:23,340
um and I will also point out that both

1688
01:14:27,290 --> 01:14:24,840
for this slide and the subsequent

1689
01:14:30,770 --> 01:14:27,300
coverage slide we I do not talk to any

1690
01:14:32,990 --> 01:14:30,780
classified DOD or DHA systems than an

1691
01:14:40,010 --> 01:14:33,000
operation

1692
01:14:46,430 --> 01:14:42,770
so what it is what can the fa detect and

1693
01:14:49,970 --> 01:14:46,440
surveil what can get me not this slide

1694
01:14:51,530 --> 01:14:49,980
gives you a buy altitude slice of what

1695
01:14:53,570 --> 01:14:51,540
it is that we can detect so if you look

1696
01:14:55,490 --> 01:14:53,580
at the the

1697
01:14:56,689 --> 01:14:55,500
Square that's labeled a thousand foot

1698
01:14:59,990 --> 01:14:56,699
AGL

1699
01:15:02,570 --> 01:15:00,000
that depicts by sensor for an aircraft

1700
01:15:04,970 --> 01:15:02,580
that is a thousand feet in altitude what

1701
01:15:06,350 --> 01:15:04,980
is the range at which we can detect that

1702
01:15:09,050 --> 01:15:06,360
aircraft

1703
01:15:10,910 --> 01:15:09,060
and so on as you if you get higher in

1704
01:15:14,149 --> 01:15:10,920
altitude

1705
01:15:15,770 --> 01:15:14,159
detect it at further range and that's

1706
01:15:17,630 --> 01:15:15,780
basically a phenomena of the coverage of

1707
01:15:20,689 --> 01:15:17,640
the Earth in the line of sight aspect of

1708
01:15:23,810 --> 01:15:20,699
these these radar systems so pretty good

1709
01:15:26,330 --> 01:15:23,820
coverage across the the us at 10 000

1710
01:15:29,390 --> 01:15:26,340
feet and above

1711
01:15:31,610 --> 01:15:29,400
this is a mathematical model based of a

1712
01:15:33,229 --> 01:15:31,620
pure line of sight as well as some

1713
01:15:35,510 --> 01:15:33,239
geographical screenings you can see in

1714
01:15:37,189 --> 01:15:35,520
the western part of the U.S there are

1715
01:15:40,970 --> 01:15:37,199
there is screening and due to the

1716
01:15:45,950 --> 01:15:42,470
need to take a little bit of time and

1717
01:15:48,790 --> 01:15:45,960
talk about the the nature of the targets

1718
01:15:52,790 --> 01:15:48,800
these line of sight models

1719
01:15:55,010 --> 01:15:52,800
represent an input of a Target that is

1720
01:15:57,470 --> 01:15:55,020
one square meter so think of a sphere of

1721
01:15:59,209 --> 01:15:57,480
one meter in diameter that's the

1722
01:16:00,890 --> 01:15:59,219
assumption that goes into these models

1723
01:16:03,649 --> 01:16:00,900
so if you think about that in the

1724
01:16:07,070 --> 01:16:03,659
context of other forms or aircraft a

1725
01:16:08,930 --> 01:16:07,080
fourth generation F-15 or F-18 is in the

1726
01:16:10,550 --> 01:16:08,940
proximity of about one square meter

1727
01:16:13,850 --> 01:16:10,560
perhaps a little bit larger

1728
01:16:14,930 --> 01:16:13,860
a large airliner is perhaps a 100 square

1729
01:16:17,450 --> 01:16:14,940
meters

1730
01:16:20,290 --> 01:16:17,460
a small uas

1731
01:16:24,590 --> 01:16:20,300
is perhaps

1732
01:16:26,810 --> 01:16:24,600
one or a 0.01 square meter so the range

1733
01:16:28,790 --> 01:16:26,820
of these detections or the or the size

1734
01:16:33,410 --> 01:16:28,800
and the ability to check these targets

1735
01:16:36,229 --> 01:16:33,420
from an F-15 large airliner 100 times

1736
01:16:39,070 --> 01:16:36,239
larger in size a drone a hundred times

1737
01:16:42,110 --> 01:16:39,080
smaller in size so the detection

1738
01:16:44,149 --> 01:16:42,120
of in a surveillance capability really

1739
01:16:46,130 --> 01:16:44,159
largely depends in part to the the

1740
01:16:49,910 --> 01:16:46,140
Target that we're talking about and the

1741
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:55,130
all right next slide

1742
01:17:01,430 --> 01:16:58,970
so I do include this adsb coverage slide

1743
01:17:03,830 --> 01:17:01,440
just to give a context of from a

1744
01:17:07,130 --> 01:17:03,840
Cooperative perspective there is very

1745
01:17:10,970 --> 01:17:07,140
good coverage across the U.S to without

1746
01:17:13,910 --> 01:17:10,980
a 1 500 feet above ground level so this

1747
01:17:15,530 --> 01:17:13,920
provided context of what when we look at

1748
01:17:17,149 --> 01:17:15,540
the data and start getting a discussion

1749
01:17:19,850 --> 01:17:17,159
of what it is we can detect this will

1750
01:17:22,850 --> 01:17:19,860
certainly for those Cooperative aircraft

1751
01:17:24,709 --> 01:17:22,860
that have adsb we could certainly detect

1752
01:17:29,630 --> 01:17:24,719
those to a pretty a pretty low altitude

1753
01:17:33,830 --> 01:17:31,729
all right a couple of data points I

1754
01:17:35,330 --> 01:17:33,840
think um I know Sean he talked about

1755
01:17:37,850 --> 01:17:35,340
some of the data points and I can

1756
01:17:39,470 --> 01:17:37,860
provide a little bit of insight from an

1757
01:17:42,830 --> 01:17:39,480
fa perspective

1758
01:17:46,130 --> 01:17:42,840
drones drones are pretty significant

1759
01:17:48,490 --> 01:17:46,140
challenge there's 880 000 registered

1760
01:17:51,950 --> 01:17:48,500
drones in the U.S

1761
01:17:53,510 --> 01:17:51,960
small drones I should say part 107

1762
01:17:55,850 --> 01:17:53,520
drones

1763
01:17:58,970 --> 01:17:55,860
um many tens of thousands of those are

1764
01:18:01,610 --> 01:17:58,980
operate operated on a daily basis for by

1765
01:18:03,709 --> 01:18:01,620
commercial operators it's not clear how

1766
01:18:07,610 --> 01:18:03,719
many private drone operators are taking

1767
01:18:09,229 --> 01:18:07,620
their their drone up for a quick flight

1768
01:18:10,669 --> 01:18:09,239
um but as I said earlier those are

1769
01:18:16,130 --> 01:18:10,679
regulated

1770
01:18:19,790 --> 01:18:16,140
400 feet in altitude so again it's the

1771
01:18:22,070 --> 01:18:19,800
Drone aspect is for those small drones

1772
01:18:24,649 --> 01:18:22,080
in particular and as well as all all

1773
01:18:26,750 --> 01:18:24,659
classes of drones there are regulatory

1774
01:18:29,030 --> 01:18:26,760
restrictions to where they can and

1775
01:18:30,709 --> 01:18:29,040
cannot fly basically avoiding and not

1776
01:18:34,010 --> 01:18:30,719
interfering with manned aircraft

1777
01:18:38,510 --> 01:18:35,689
second data point we talked about

1778
01:18:40,790 --> 01:18:38,520
balloons The Weather Service we know on

1779
01:18:42,370 --> 01:18:40,800
190 or 92 weather stations the release

1780
01:18:45,470 --> 01:18:42,380
balloons twice a day

1781
01:18:49,630 --> 01:18:45,480
at 6 a.m and and

1782
01:18:52,250 --> 01:18:49,640
uh zero zero hundred Zulu and 1200 Zulu

1783
01:18:54,110 --> 01:18:52,260
typically two hour duration they fly up

1784
01:18:56,930 --> 01:18:54,120
to 100 000 feet where the envelope

1785
01:18:59,810 --> 01:18:56,940
bursts and and then the payload uh

1786
01:19:01,850 --> 01:18:59,820
descends back back to Earth so certainly

1787
01:19:04,669 --> 01:19:01,860
um you know 100 at least 184 balloon

1788
01:19:06,649 --> 01:19:04,679
flights daily in the nas you know not to

1789
01:19:08,450 --> 01:19:06,659
consider universities and hobbyist

1790
01:19:12,229 --> 01:19:08,460
balloons that that may be launched but

1791
01:19:15,290 --> 01:19:12,239
those are typically small small in size

1792
01:19:18,110 --> 01:19:15,300
and finally uh Sean did talk about uaps

1793
01:19:20,209 --> 01:19:18,120
and NFA data a couple of data points

1794
01:19:22,149 --> 01:19:20,219
that we do report there is a process by

1795
01:19:27,350 --> 01:19:22,159
which air traffic controllers can report

1796
01:19:28,910 --> 01:19:27,360
UAP sightings or or events uh

1797
01:19:31,550 --> 01:19:28,920
historically those have been in the

1798
01:19:34,669 --> 01:19:31,560
range of about three to five reports per

1799
01:19:38,830 --> 01:19:34,679
month that have been reported we did see

1800
01:19:42,290 --> 01:19:38,840
an uptick of of reports in August of 22

1801
01:19:45,010 --> 01:19:42,300
that went up to about 8 to 10 perhaps

1802
01:19:47,390 --> 01:19:45,020
due to starlink launches

1803
01:19:50,149 --> 01:19:47,400
and finally the

1804
01:19:52,310 --> 01:19:50,159
with the Chinese weather or the Chinese

1805
01:19:54,229 --> 01:19:52,320
balloon incidents in February we did see

1806
01:19:58,450 --> 01:19:54,239
a significant up tip and uptick and

1807
01:20:00,649 --> 01:19:58,460
there's like 68 UAP reports that

1808
01:20:02,390 --> 01:20:00,659
starting in February and we've seen a

1809
01:20:04,729 --> 01:20:02,400
large number you know subsequent to them

1810
01:20:07,490 --> 01:20:04,739
to that

1811
01:20:09,890 --> 01:20:07,500
I think that's all I had

1812
01:20:11,570 --> 01:20:09,900
um any questions

1813
01:20:13,669 --> 01:20:11,580
do you want to take the question

1814
01:20:17,630 --> 01:20:13,679
actually you can call choose the

1815
01:20:20,270 --> 01:20:17,640
questioners it's easy for you all right

1816
01:20:23,030 --> 01:20:20,280
questions two questions about the uh the

1817
01:20:27,050 --> 01:20:23,040
the radar data coverage first one is do

1818
01:20:29,750 --> 01:20:27,060
you retain any of the data or is it um

1819
01:20:32,390 --> 01:20:29,760
just cycled over as there is a retention

1820
01:20:34,490 --> 01:20:32,400
and long-term retention of data I can't

1821
01:20:37,490 --> 01:20:34,500
recall exactly how long retained that is

1822
01:20:38,930 --> 01:20:37,500
certainly a requirement from a retention

1823
01:20:43,070 --> 01:20:38,940
from a

1824
01:20:46,189 --> 01:20:43,080
live legal perspective exactly but I do

1825
01:20:47,810 --> 01:20:46,199
know there is some periodicity in a

1826
01:20:51,050 --> 01:20:47,820
measured in a term of months is it

1827
01:20:53,450 --> 01:20:51,060
retained in terms of like the raw radar

1828
01:20:55,250 --> 01:20:53,460
or is some processed form of data that's

1829
01:20:58,010 --> 01:20:55,260
retained I believe it's a process form

1830
01:21:00,290 --> 01:20:58,020
of data that is what was displayed on

1831
01:21:02,870 --> 01:21:00,300
the uh whether it's in an Indian root

1832
01:21:05,570 --> 01:21:02,880
eram system or the star system and then

1833
01:21:08,090 --> 01:21:05,580
the other question is for The Radars are

1834
01:21:11,689 --> 01:21:08,100
they operated in any sort of a tasked

1835
01:21:13,610 --> 01:21:11,699
mode or are they constant search the

1836
01:21:15,350 --> 01:21:13,620
current systems in our inventory just

1837
01:21:18,169 --> 01:21:15,360
their their fixed face and they just

1838
01:21:19,910 --> 01:21:18,179
rotate at either 12 RPM or 5 RPM

1839
01:21:23,270 --> 01:21:19,920
depending on whether it's an enroute or

1840
01:21:33,350 --> 01:21:23,280
a terminal surveillance requirement all

1841
01:21:38,750 --> 01:21:35,750
that is three to five reports per month

1842
01:21:41,270 --> 01:21:38,760
for all the controllers in all of the US

1843
01:21:42,530 --> 01:21:41,280
so there's a process by which if they

1844
01:21:45,110 --> 01:21:42,540
see something and they want to report

1845
01:21:48,770 --> 01:21:45,120
that they can go to report that to the

1846
01:21:50,090 --> 01:21:48,780
the then we call it but uh report hey I

1847
01:21:52,729 --> 01:21:50,100
saw something I don't know what it was

1848
01:21:55,729 --> 01:21:52,739
so that's three to five per month across

1849
01:21:57,290 --> 01:21:55,739
the entire you have 14 000 controllers

1850
01:21:59,450 --> 01:21:57,300
per month so

1851
01:22:02,270 --> 01:21:59,460
you know 45

1852
01:22:04,490 --> 01:22:02,280
000 operations any given day

1853
01:22:05,870 --> 01:22:04,500
30 months 30 days however many days in a

1854
01:22:08,689 --> 01:22:05,880
month you know it's a very small

1855
01:22:13,070 --> 01:22:10,850
uh

1856
01:22:16,130 --> 01:22:13,080
actually about this how do you do you

1857
01:22:19,010 --> 01:22:16,140
encourage to report do you feel like the

1858
01:22:20,470 --> 01:22:19,020
stigma on uaps is impairing the

1859
01:22:23,750 --> 01:22:20,480
reporting

1860
01:22:25,669 --> 01:22:23,760
I'm not aware of

1861
01:22:29,330 --> 01:22:25,679
I'll answer it this way

1862
01:22:31,729 --> 01:22:29,340
um the the process by which UAP is

1863
01:22:33,830 --> 01:22:31,739
reported is part of the air traffic

1864
01:22:35,510 --> 01:22:33,840
controller order so basically the Air

1865
01:22:37,070 --> 01:22:35,520
Drive controllers are allowed it says

1866
01:22:38,870 --> 01:22:37,080
you know if you see something here's a

1867
01:22:41,209 --> 01:22:38,880
process by which the procedure by which

1868
01:22:44,510 --> 01:22:41,219
you would report it other than that I'm

1869
01:22:48,530 --> 01:22:44,520
not aware of any any specific stigma or

1870
01:22:50,870 --> 01:22:48,540
or limitations and I really probably not

1871
01:22:52,490 --> 01:22:50,880
a good position to you know to speak to

1872
01:22:54,590 --> 01:22:52,500
that other than there is that process

1873
01:22:57,350 --> 01:22:54,600
and that is the process that we used and

1874
01:22:59,570 --> 01:22:57,360
is what represents those numbers I

1875
01:23:01,510 --> 01:22:59,580
talked to and if I may have had a

1876
01:23:03,950 --> 01:23:01,520
question prior to this one how do you

1877
01:23:06,470 --> 01:23:03,960
decide the sites where you deploy you

1878
01:23:08,330 --> 01:23:06,480
saw the map and it has some very good

1879
01:23:10,430 --> 01:23:08,340
coverage on the coastal areas there were

1880
01:23:12,470 --> 01:23:10,440
some areas of lack of coverage yeah so

1881
01:23:15,709 --> 01:23:12,480
if we went if you go back go back one

1882
01:23:18,350 --> 01:23:15,719
slide from what's presented here

1883
01:23:20,810 --> 01:23:18,360
um the what you'll see is in the eastern

1884
01:23:23,090 --> 01:23:20,820
half of the U.S there's a lot better

1885
01:23:25,070 --> 01:23:23,100
coverage but that's because there's a

1886
01:23:27,050 --> 01:23:25,080
lot more population in the East and

1887
01:23:29,870 --> 01:23:27,060
therefore a lot more airports and these

1888
01:23:31,430 --> 01:23:29,880
systems are historically cited at the

1889
01:23:34,130 --> 01:23:31,440
airport in support of those those

1890
01:23:37,370 --> 01:23:34,140
airport operations to the West obviously

1891
01:23:41,090 --> 01:23:37,380
oops to less less dense and fewer

1892
01:23:43,850 --> 01:23:41,100
systems now the that's from an ASR the

1893
01:23:46,490 --> 01:23:43,860
short range radar perspective the long

1894
01:23:48,709 --> 01:23:46,500
range Radars are pretty much equally

1895
01:23:50,630 --> 01:23:48,719
spaced to provide in order to provide

1896
01:23:53,810 --> 01:23:50,640
the maximum coverage from a Homeland

1897
01:23:56,990 --> 01:23:53,820
defense and security perspective as well

1898
01:23:58,189 --> 01:23:57,000
as with a higher altitude flights the en

1899
01:24:04,130 --> 01:23:58,199
route

1900
01:24:09,350 --> 01:24:08,030
Warren uh Mike first thank you in the fa

1901
01:24:11,689 --> 01:24:09,360
for coming to share this information

1902
01:24:13,669 --> 01:24:11,699
with us second uh can you speak to a

1903
01:24:15,890 --> 01:24:13,679
little bit of the filtering techniques

1904
01:24:17,689 --> 01:24:15,900
that we use so with respect to I know

1905
01:24:19,070 --> 01:24:17,699
Walter had a question about the raw data

1906
01:24:20,870 --> 01:24:19,080
and process but can you just talk a

1907
01:24:22,490 --> 01:24:20,880
little bit about we actually aren't

1908
01:24:23,810 --> 01:24:22,500
trying to detect everything you know

1909
01:24:25,669 --> 01:24:23,820
that's actually a very good question and

1910
01:24:29,630 --> 01:24:25,679
a very good point with respect to what

1911
01:24:31,430 --> 01:24:29,640
we can and cannot see so there are you

1912
01:24:34,610 --> 01:24:31,440
know the closer to the ground you point

1913
01:24:37,189 --> 01:24:34,620
a radar certainly you can get lower

1914
01:24:39,530 --> 01:24:37,199
elevations but you also start to see the

1915
01:24:42,050 --> 01:24:39,540
effects of trees and other ground-based

1916
01:24:43,910 --> 01:24:42,060
clutter as we call it that starts to

1917
01:24:46,310 --> 01:24:43,920
interfere so we we have great ability to

1918
01:24:49,070 --> 01:24:46,320
detect a lot of things but but from an

1919
01:24:50,990 --> 01:24:49,080
fa Mission perspective our desire is to

1920
01:24:53,030 --> 01:24:51,000
find that sweet spot of seeing

1921
01:24:54,830 --> 01:24:53,040
everything to as low in altitude as we

1922
01:24:57,770 --> 01:24:54,840
can

1923
01:24:59,810 --> 01:24:57,780
um to maximize our mission around safe

1924
01:25:01,430 --> 01:24:59,820
operations of manned aircraft

1925
01:25:03,290 --> 01:25:01,440
now to pull that thread just a little

1926
01:25:05,390 --> 01:25:03,300
bit further you know there's also a

1927
01:25:07,490 --> 01:25:05,400
limitation with respect to Biologicals

1928
01:25:11,390 --> 01:25:07,500
or or insects and dust and things of

1929
01:25:13,970 --> 01:25:11,400
this this flavor that most aircraft Fly

1930
01:25:17,030 --> 01:25:13,980
Above a certain speed so we typically

1931
01:25:20,270 --> 01:25:17,040
will have filtering settings on our

1932
01:25:22,250 --> 01:25:20,280
systems to get rid of the stuff that

1933
01:25:25,130 --> 01:25:22,260
really is leaves or insects or things of

1934
01:25:29,030 --> 01:25:25,140
that nature so that we provide as clean

1935
01:25:31,669 --> 01:25:29,040
a a display for the controllers so there

1936
01:25:33,590 --> 01:25:31,679
are specific settings that we we can can

1937
01:25:35,570 --> 01:25:33,600
adjust and it's been learned over many

1938
01:25:37,010 --> 01:25:35,580
years to perfect those what we call

1939
01:25:39,950 --> 01:25:37,020
optimization

1940
01:25:41,870 --> 01:25:39,960
of those kinds of filters to get rid of

1941
01:25:44,630 --> 01:25:41,880
what is not a manned aircraft not an

1942
01:25:47,090 --> 01:25:44,640
aircraft and and provide as clean a

1943
01:25:56,870 --> 01:25:47,100
display for the controllers as we can

1944
01:26:01,850 --> 01:25:59,149
um would it be possible to

1945
01:26:04,250 --> 01:26:01,860
um to collect the raw data and save that

1946
01:26:05,810 --> 01:26:04,260
because if if it would be possible to do

1947
01:26:07,970 --> 01:26:05,820
some calibration after the fact that

1948
01:26:09,470 --> 01:26:07,980
Sean has mentioned for example he might

1949
01:26:11,930 --> 01:26:09,480
be to capture other phenomenology is

1950
01:26:13,310 --> 01:26:11,940
that possible well when you say raw data

1951
01:26:16,010 --> 01:26:13,320
I think you'd have we'd have to talk a

1952
01:26:18,770 --> 01:26:16,020
little bit about what is meant um so you

1953
01:26:23,030 --> 01:26:18,780
know what from a technical perspective

1954
01:26:25,430 --> 01:26:23,040
pure what we would call inq data is huge

1955
01:26:29,209 --> 01:26:25,440
huge you know gigabyte very very very

1956
01:26:31,370 --> 01:26:29,219
large volumes of data that would

1957
01:26:33,770 --> 01:26:31,380
probably be cost prohibitive and we

1958
01:26:38,090 --> 01:26:33,780
certainly don't do that today

1959
01:26:40,010 --> 01:26:38,100
um the there are again we do record data

1960
01:26:41,810 --> 01:26:40,020
but it is effectively the data that is

1961
01:26:43,610 --> 01:26:41,820
has been through some form of these

1962
01:26:45,950 --> 01:26:43,620
processes and these filterings we do

1963
01:26:48,649 --> 01:26:45,960
that today

1964
01:26:50,209 --> 01:26:48,659
um but it it certainly with enough time

1965
01:26:51,830 --> 01:26:50,219
and money we could certainly collect

1966
01:26:52,550 --> 01:26:51,840
that data and I think it but it would be

1967
01:27:18,590 --> 01:26:52,560
a

1968
01:27:20,390 --> 01:27:18,600
there's very specific requirements so

1969
01:27:21,950 --> 01:27:20,400
for National Weather Service before they

1970
01:27:24,229 --> 01:27:21,960
release those they'll contact the local

1971
01:27:25,610 --> 01:27:24,239
Air Traffic facility they're going to

1972
01:27:27,649 --> 01:27:25,620
say here's what time I'm going to

1973
01:27:29,810 --> 01:27:27,659
release it and when they release it they

1974
01:27:32,750 --> 01:27:29,820
have tracking and they provide that

1975
01:27:36,410 --> 01:27:32,760
tracking to the air traffic control

1976
01:27:38,149 --> 01:27:36,420
facility throughout the flight of of you

1977
01:27:39,890 --> 01:27:38,159
know that particular Bloom there are

1978
01:27:41,750 --> 01:27:39,900
commercial balloons that are also

1979
01:27:44,629 --> 01:27:41,760
launched but those most for the most

1980
01:27:46,310 --> 01:27:44,639
part as I understand that have they

1981
01:27:49,310 --> 01:27:46,320
actually transmit their GPS position

1982
01:27:51,590 --> 01:27:49,320
it's where they're flying so as to

1983
01:27:53,270 --> 01:27:51,600
ensure they're not interfering with with

1984
01:27:55,729 --> 01:27:53,280
their traffic and to ensure they are

1985
01:27:58,669 --> 01:27:55,739
traffic controllers are aware of where

1986
01:28:02,950 --> 01:27:58,679
those those balloons are operating

1987
01:28:07,370 --> 01:28:05,629
from traffic control but what about from

1988
01:28:09,350 --> 01:28:07,380
the non-cooperative surveillance has

1989
01:28:11,870 --> 01:28:09,360
there been anomalies from the sensors

1990
01:28:13,689 --> 01:28:11,880
themselves and if so what is the process

1991
01:28:16,910 --> 01:28:13,699
for that

1992
01:28:19,370 --> 01:28:16,920
I'd say the fa mission is not around

1993
01:28:22,430 --> 01:28:19,380
anomalies with the the non-cooperative

1994
01:28:24,830 --> 01:28:22,440
sensors themselves so as we build an air

1995
01:28:26,209 --> 01:28:24,840
traffic control picture we we have both

1996
01:28:28,129 --> 01:28:26,219
the non-cooperative systems which

1997
01:28:30,770 --> 01:28:28,139
detects the target we have a Cooperative

1998
01:28:33,790 --> 01:28:30,780
system that also detects a Target and we

1999
01:28:36,890 --> 01:28:33,800
will tend to merge those those

2000
01:28:38,990 --> 01:28:36,900
targets together and so on a

2001
01:28:42,110 --> 01:28:39,000
controller's display they'll know is

2002
01:28:44,930 --> 01:28:42,120
this a non-cooperative only or merged or

2003
01:28:47,030 --> 01:28:44,940
combined Target so that they know you

2004
01:28:49,189 --> 01:28:47,040
know basically an increased level of

2005
01:28:51,830 --> 01:28:49,199
confidence that on what it is they're

2006
01:28:54,490 --> 01:28:51,840
seeing is in fact a real aircraft so we

2007
01:28:56,870 --> 01:28:54,500
don't just make any real distinction

2008
01:28:57,770 --> 01:28:56,880
between a non-cooperative and a

2009
01:28:59,990 --> 01:28:57,780
cooperative

2010
01:29:01,790 --> 01:29:00,000
other than how they get combined and put

2011
01:29:04,970 --> 01:29:01,800
on a controller's display

2012
01:29:07,430 --> 01:29:04,980
so I don't know if that answered

2013
01:29:10,430 --> 01:29:07,440
uh so so like a ga flight that does

2014
01:29:13,250 --> 01:29:10,440
notice flying visual flight rules uh

2015
01:29:14,510 --> 01:29:13,260
those will just be picked up by the if

2016
01:29:16,370 --> 01:29:14,520
there anything if they don't if they're

2017
01:29:19,070 --> 01:29:16,380
not equipped with with a court with a

2018
01:29:20,810 --> 01:29:19,080
Cooperative uh avionics those would just

2019
01:29:23,629 --> 01:29:20,820
be picked up by the non-cooperative

2020
01:29:25,910 --> 01:29:23,639
system that if they happen to surveil

2021
01:29:27,229 --> 01:29:25,920
where that aircraft is is flying and so

2022
01:29:29,570 --> 01:29:27,239
that certainly will be put on the

2023
01:29:31,850 --> 01:29:29,580
controller's display and they will be

2024
01:29:34,010 --> 01:29:31,860
able to provide

2025
01:29:37,250 --> 01:29:34,020
um awareness in fact there's a flight

2026
01:29:39,950 --> 01:29:37,260
following a procedure by which GA Pilots

2027
01:29:42,169 --> 01:29:39,960
can ask for hey I'm not I'm not

2028
01:29:45,950 --> 01:29:42,179
squawking I don't have a Cooperative

2029
01:29:47,629 --> 01:29:45,960
system but please help me and just via

2030
01:29:50,570 --> 01:29:47,639
the radio I'm going to going from here

2031
01:29:52,550 --> 01:29:50,580
to here and and providing awareness uh

2032
01:29:54,470 --> 01:29:52,560
situational awareness if the controller

2033
01:29:57,709 --> 01:29:54,480
has the bandwidth to to provide that

2034
01:29:59,270 --> 01:29:57,719
data One Last Question come on yeah so

2035
01:30:01,490 --> 01:29:59,280
I'm not a scientist I'm a recovering

2036
01:30:04,189 --> 01:30:01,500
attorney and I love process and a few

2037
01:30:06,830 --> 01:30:04,199
questions there if I'm a pilot where do

2038
01:30:08,750 --> 01:30:06,840
I find that process for reporting uaps

2039
01:30:10,669 --> 01:30:08,760
where is that articulated or captured

2040
01:30:12,530 --> 01:30:10,679
second when you mentioned that you're

2041
01:30:14,990 --> 01:30:12,540
reporting these incidents who are you

2042
01:30:16,189 --> 01:30:15,000
reporting it to and are those incidents

2043
01:30:18,229 --> 01:30:16,199
pulling on the thread that Reggie

2044
01:30:20,870 --> 01:30:18,239
started are they being archived anywhere

2045
01:30:24,110 --> 01:30:20,880
I believe they are archived they're

2046
01:30:27,290 --> 01:30:24,120
reported to the domestic Network event

2047
01:30:28,330 --> 01:30:27,300
Network it's an fa organization or our

2048
01:30:31,490 --> 01:30:28,340
function

2049
01:30:33,649 --> 01:30:31,500
I don't I I can't speak to whether or

2050
01:30:36,169 --> 01:30:33,659
for whether they would be say part of

2051
01:30:39,290 --> 01:30:36,179
what Sean would would include as part of

2052
01:30:41,030 --> 01:30:39,300
his database I presume so

2053
01:30:42,590 --> 01:30:41,040
um so I can think that was the answer to

2054
01:30:44,090 --> 01:30:42,600
the second question uh what was the

2055
01:30:46,550 --> 01:30:44,100
first question again I'm sorry where

2056
01:30:48,590 --> 01:30:46,560
does the reporting process live if I'm a

2057
01:30:50,090 --> 01:30:48,600
pilot I see a uip where do I go to find

2058
01:30:52,070 --> 01:30:50,100
that I don't know the answer to that

2059
01:30:53,689 --> 01:30:52,080
question I said I'm familiar with the

2060
01:30:55,430 --> 01:30:53,699
reporting process from a controller

2061
01:30:58,370 --> 01:30:55,440
perspective and the order that's that's

2062
01:31:00,770 --> 01:30:58,380
used to define how controllers do their

2063
01:31:02,330 --> 01:31:00,780
job I am not I I don't know the answer

2064
01:31:06,169 --> 01:31:02,340
to the question for a pilot perspective

2065
01:31:11,209 --> 01:31:08,510
great so uh thank you Mike for your

2066
01:31:12,830 --> 01:31:11,219
presentation and uh for the all the help

2067
01:31:14,510 --> 01:31:12,840
the FAA has given us as we've been

2068
01:31:15,290 --> 01:31:14,520
learning more about the very impressive

2069
01:31:18,110 --> 01:31:15,300
system

2070
01:31:21,110 --> 01:31:18,120
that the FAA maintains uh thank you I

2071
01:31:23,689 --> 01:31:21,120
know you know for me one of the many

2072
01:31:25,669 --> 01:31:23,699
takeaways from this is uh filling it you

2073
01:31:28,070 --> 01:31:25,679
know just a little bit safer every time

2074
01:31:29,629 --> 01:31:28,080
I fly and thankful for you and your

2075
01:31:30,649 --> 01:31:29,639
colleagues for what they do to make that

2076
01:31:34,370 --> 01:31:30,659
possible

2077
01:31:36,770 --> 01:31:34,380
thank you and we're now going to take a

2078
01:31:38,510 --> 01:31:36,780
quick lunch break we'll be back at 12

2079
01:31:40,490 --> 01:31:38,520
30.

2080
01:32:35,149 --> 01:31:40,500
um and uh

2081
01:32:35,159 --> 01:34:24,070
foreign

2082
01:34:24,080 --> 01:35:07,550
thank you

2083
01:45:41,590 --> 01:36:39,229
foreign

2084
01:45:41,600 --> 01:46:13,189
thank you

2085
01:48:41,050 --> 01:47:21,470
foreign

2086
01:49:07,570 --> 01:49:01,200
[Music]

2087
01:49:13,910 --> 01:49:11,570
welcome back so the next part of our

2088
01:49:16,070 --> 01:49:13,920
session is going to consistently a

2089
01:49:18,109 --> 01:49:16,080
series of short presentations by members

2090
01:49:21,470 --> 01:49:18,119
of the panel and their thoughts on

2091
01:49:23,209 --> 01:49:21,480
different aspects of our charge

2092
01:49:26,030 --> 01:49:23,219
and the format is we're going to have

2093
01:49:27,890 --> 01:49:26,040
them come up to the podium and speak

2094
01:49:29,629 --> 01:49:27,900
and I'm going to ask each of the

2095
01:49:31,850 --> 01:49:29,639
speakers then to take questions it's

2096
01:49:33,890 --> 01:49:31,860
actually the angle with this setup is

2097
01:49:35,689 --> 01:49:33,900
you you can see the people better from

2098
01:49:37,250 --> 01:49:35,699
the podium than I can where it's hard to

2099
01:49:40,910 --> 01:49:37,260
see people behind you

2100
01:49:43,790 --> 01:49:40,920
I'm going to try to keep manage the time

2101
01:49:45,410 --> 01:49:43,800
so as those questions you know come to

2102
01:49:46,550 --> 01:49:45,420
an end I'll cut you off and bring up the

2103
01:49:50,030 --> 01:49:46,560
next speaker

2104
01:49:52,010 --> 01:49:50,040
and we'll move through the the six

2105
01:49:54,669 --> 01:49:52,020
topics and then we'll have some time at

2106
01:49:57,709 --> 01:49:54,679
the end for some general discussion

2107
01:50:06,890 --> 01:49:57,719
the first speaker will be Dr Nadia Drake

2108
01:50:11,950 --> 01:50:09,950
hello and welcome back from lunch

2109
01:50:14,209 --> 01:50:11,960
everybody and uh welcome to those of you

2110
01:50:16,070 --> 01:50:14,219
watching us virtually

2111
01:50:18,229 --> 01:50:16,080
um I'm Nadia I am a Scientist by

2112
01:50:21,350 --> 01:50:18,239
training I'm also a science journalist

2113
01:50:22,970 --> 01:50:21,360
now and my job is to try and synthesize

2114
01:50:26,030 --> 01:50:22,980
the information that we've learned so

2115
01:50:28,550 --> 01:50:26,040
far and summarize the situation so if

2116
01:50:30,530 --> 01:50:28,560
you will put together a framework for

2117
01:50:32,330 --> 01:50:30,540
thinking about UAP

2118
01:50:34,370 --> 01:50:32,340
now I'm going to try and do this in a

2119
01:50:36,290 --> 01:50:34,380
way that reflects the thoughts of the

2120
01:50:38,649 --> 01:50:36,300
entire panel although obviously we have

2121
01:50:40,790 --> 01:50:38,659
a variety of opinions and ideas Among Us

2122
01:50:42,229 --> 01:50:40,800
so I'd like to leave some time at the

2123
01:50:45,410 --> 01:50:42,239
end for you to weigh in with

2124
01:50:48,229 --> 01:50:45,420
disagreements or concurrences as needed

2125
01:50:50,689 --> 01:50:48,239
so first a housekeeping matter the

2126
01:50:52,750 --> 01:50:50,699
definition of UAP changed during the

2127
01:50:55,370 --> 01:50:52,760
seven months of our fact-finding process

2128
01:50:57,530 --> 01:50:55,380
UAP initially stood for unidentified

2129
01:50:59,149 --> 01:50:57,540
aerial phenomena with Ariel referring to

2130
01:51:01,910 --> 01:50:59,159
events occurring in Earth's atmosphere

2131
01:51:04,189 --> 01:51:01,920
that a is now defined as anomalous which

2132
01:51:06,470 --> 01:51:04,199
includes the space air and undersea

2133
01:51:08,209 --> 01:51:06,480
domains as a panel I think we have

2134
01:51:10,250 --> 01:51:08,219
decided to continue focusing our

2135
01:51:11,990 --> 01:51:10,260
recommendations on the aerial domain

2136
01:51:14,149 --> 01:51:12,000
because that is where the majority of

2137
01:51:16,010 --> 01:51:14,159
sightings and events have occurred and

2138
01:51:17,510 --> 01:51:16,020
also because we couldn't fully pivot to

2139
01:51:20,090 --> 01:51:17,520
address the expanded scope of the new

2140
01:51:24,830 --> 01:51:22,189
beyond that there are three points I

2141
01:51:27,410 --> 01:51:24,840
want to make the first is that for a

2142
01:51:30,830 --> 01:51:27,420
number of reasons UAP are obviously

2143
01:51:32,810 --> 01:51:30,840
quite interesting right that is why we

2144
01:51:34,729 --> 01:51:32,820
are here

2145
01:51:36,950 --> 01:51:34,739
recently many credible Witnesses have

2146
01:51:38,810 --> 01:51:36,960
reported seeing unidentified objects in

2147
01:51:42,109 --> 01:51:38,820
the sky some of which are behaving

2148
01:51:44,209 --> 01:51:42,119
rather peculiarly peculiarly

2149
01:51:45,770 --> 01:51:44,219
in some instances these reports include

2150
01:51:48,229 --> 01:51:45,780
corroborating data from various

2151
01:51:51,109 --> 01:51:48,239
instruments various sensors

2152
01:51:52,970 --> 01:51:51,119
the challenge that we have is that the

2153
01:51:55,609 --> 01:51:52,980
data needed to explain these anomalous

2154
01:51:57,590 --> 01:51:55,619
sightings often do not exist or are

2155
01:51:59,450 --> 01:51:57,600
incomplete for generating a conclusive

2156
01:52:02,270 --> 01:51:59,460
analysis

2157
01:52:03,890 --> 01:52:02,280
this includes eyewitness reports which

2158
01:52:06,109 --> 01:52:03,900
on their own can be interesting and

2159
01:52:07,850 --> 01:52:06,119
compelling but often lack the

2160
01:52:11,270 --> 01:52:07,860
information needed to make definitive

2161
01:52:13,310 --> 01:52:11,280
conclusions about an object's provenance

2162
01:52:15,050 --> 01:52:13,320
we as a panel are thinking about the

2163
01:52:17,149 --> 01:52:15,060
types of data that might add value to

2164
01:52:19,070 --> 01:52:17,159
those reports and which could be useful

2165
01:52:22,370 --> 01:52:19,080
on their own

2166
01:52:24,590 --> 01:52:22,380
as a corollary to date in the refereed

2167
01:52:26,330 --> 01:52:24,600
scientific literature there is no

2168
01:52:29,570 --> 01:52:26,340
conclusive evidence suggesting an

2169
01:52:31,850 --> 01:52:29,580
extraterrestrial origin for UAP

2170
01:52:33,950 --> 01:52:31,860
collecting more good data for the

2171
01:52:35,570 --> 01:52:33,960
scientific Community to review in a

2172
01:52:41,450 --> 01:52:35,580
peer-reviewed context will be important

2173
01:52:47,030 --> 01:52:43,550
the second point

2174
01:52:48,950 --> 01:52:47,040
UAP offer an excellent opportunity to

2175
01:52:51,709 --> 01:52:48,960
demonstrate the power of the scientific

2176
01:52:53,330 --> 01:52:51,719
method and of empirically addressing a

2177
01:52:54,530 --> 01:52:53,340
question using a multi-disciplinary

2178
01:52:56,930 --> 01:52:54,540
approach

2179
01:52:58,850 --> 01:52:56,940
it is our job as a panel to make some

2180
01:53:01,490 --> 01:52:58,860
recommendations about how NASA might go

2181
01:53:03,169 --> 01:53:01,500
about tackling this topic scientifically

2182
01:53:06,950 --> 01:53:03,179
taking advantage of the agency's

2183
01:53:09,290 --> 01:53:06,960
resources Global Outreach and reputation

2184
01:53:12,109 --> 01:53:09,300
key points to keep in mind here

2185
01:53:13,070 --> 01:53:12,119
are that science is Sciences hypothesis

2186
01:53:15,290 --> 01:53:13,080
driven

2187
01:53:18,189 --> 01:53:15,300
scientists build confidence in their

2188
01:53:20,390 --> 01:53:18,199
theories by relying on well-calibrated

2189
01:53:22,850 --> 01:53:20,400
well-collected data using

2190
01:53:26,570 --> 01:53:22,860
well-established methods with rigorous

2191
01:53:29,990 --> 01:53:26,580
evaluation and independent corroboration

2192
01:53:31,609 --> 01:53:30,000
in science skepticism is not a bias nor

2193
01:53:34,010 --> 01:53:31,619
is it a bad word

2194
01:53:35,689 --> 01:53:34,020
it is not our job to Define nature but

2195
01:53:38,450 --> 01:53:35,699
to study it in ways that let nature

2196
01:53:40,669 --> 01:53:38,460
reveal itself to us regardless of how

2197
01:53:42,229 --> 01:53:40,679
exciting or disappointing that reality

2198
01:53:43,910 --> 01:53:42,239
might be

2199
01:53:46,129 --> 01:53:43,920
and to that end when we're thinking

2200
01:53:47,390 --> 01:53:46,139
about making recommendations about how

2201
01:53:49,550 --> 01:53:47,400
NASA can tackle this topic

2202
01:53:51,169 --> 01:53:49,560
scientifically I think it's important to

2203
01:53:52,490 --> 01:53:51,179
remember that it's not NASA's job to

2204
01:53:54,530 --> 01:53:52,500
replicate the efforts of the Department

2205
01:53:56,570 --> 01:53:54,540
of Defense but rather to consider

2206
01:53:58,310 --> 01:53:56,580
approaches that are complementary to

2207
01:54:00,830 --> 01:53:58,320
what the all domain anomaly resolution

2208
01:54:02,390 --> 01:54:00,840
office is doing

2209
01:54:04,850 --> 01:54:02,400
and so one of the questions that we as a

2210
01:54:07,129 --> 01:54:04,860
panel I think need to Center is what can

2211
01:54:10,129 --> 01:54:07,139
we recommend that NASA can do that the

2212
01:54:14,629 --> 01:54:12,649
third point to that end what are we even

2213
01:54:15,709 --> 01:54:14,639
looking for how are we defining this

2214
01:54:17,750 --> 01:54:15,719
problem

2215
01:54:20,570 --> 01:54:17,760
and how do the available data Define

2216
01:54:22,070 --> 01:54:20,580
what seems to be to borrow a cliche a

2217
01:54:23,330 --> 01:54:22,080
very slender needle in a very big

2218
01:54:24,709 --> 01:54:23,340
haystack

2219
01:54:28,129 --> 01:54:24,719
we heard a little bit about that today

2220
01:54:31,189 --> 01:54:28,139
from Dr Kirkpatrick who reported that

2221
01:54:33,950 --> 01:54:31,199
there have been 800 events collected

2222
01:54:36,229 --> 01:54:33,960
over about 27 years

2223
01:54:38,030 --> 01:54:36,239
and between two and five percent of

2224
01:54:40,490 --> 01:54:38,040
those events display signatures that

2225
01:54:42,470 --> 01:54:40,500
could be anomalous defined as anything

2226
01:54:44,870 --> 01:54:42,480
that is not readily understandable by

2227
01:54:47,750 --> 01:54:44,880
the operator or the sensor something

2228
01:54:50,330 --> 01:54:47,760
that is doing something weird

2229
01:54:52,490 --> 01:54:50,340
Mr free and some of the experts on our

2230
01:54:54,950 --> 01:54:52,500
panel have defined the background on

2231
01:54:57,649 --> 01:54:54,960
which those events exist the amount of

2232
01:54:59,390 --> 01:54:57,659
stuff in the sky at any given time like

2233
01:55:02,149 --> 01:54:59,400
so

2234
01:55:04,729 --> 01:55:02,159
on average FAA or traffic control

2235
01:55:07,910 --> 01:55:04,739
handles 45 000 flights per day in U.S

2236
01:55:09,350 --> 01:55:07,920
airspace with 5400 aircraft in the sky

2237
01:55:11,270 --> 01:55:09,360
at Peak time

2238
01:55:13,910 --> 01:55:11,280
worldwide on average there are about

2239
01:55:16,430 --> 01:55:13,920
1600 weather balloon launches per day

2240
01:55:17,810 --> 01:55:16,440
in the US there are at least 184 of

2241
01:55:19,310 --> 01:55:17,820
those balloons launched and that doesn't

2242
01:55:20,930 --> 01:55:19,320
include private companies or research

2243
01:55:23,209 --> 01:55:20,940
flights

2244
01:55:25,850 --> 01:55:23,219
there are about 1.69 million

2245
01:55:27,410 --> 01:55:25,860
recreational or model small uncrewed

2246
01:55:30,350 --> 01:55:27,420
aircraft systems

2247
01:55:32,930 --> 01:55:30,360
and an additional 880 000 drones are

2248
01:55:34,370 --> 01:55:32,940
registered for commercial use

2249
01:55:36,229 --> 01:55:34,380
and these are not controlled by air

2250
01:55:37,850 --> 01:55:36,239
traffic control and they are not

2251
01:55:42,169 --> 01:55:37,860
scheduled flights

2252
01:55:45,590 --> 01:55:43,850
so when making recommendations as a

2253
01:55:47,870 --> 01:55:45,600
panel I think we need to look at what

2254
01:55:49,609 --> 01:55:47,880
kind of imprint we want to leave what

2255
01:55:51,770 --> 01:55:49,619
does the situation look like five years

2256
01:55:52,729 --> 01:55:51,780
from now what does it look like 10 years

2257
01:55:55,550 --> 01:55:52,739
from now

2258
01:55:56,930 --> 01:55:55,560
why are we making these recommendations

2259
01:55:59,570 --> 01:55:56,940
we heard a little bit about this this

2260
01:56:01,070 --> 01:55:59,580
morning from both Mike and David who

2261
01:56:03,169 --> 01:56:01,080
noted that many discoveries in science

2262
01:56:05,030 --> 01:56:03,179
are rooted and initially unexplained and

2263
01:56:07,729 --> 01:56:05,040
bizarre phenomena

2264
01:56:09,470 --> 01:56:07,739
so by carefully scrutinizing the sky or

2265
01:56:11,570 --> 01:56:09,480
however we end up defining our search

2266
01:56:13,609 --> 01:56:11,580
space and by collaborating across

2267
01:56:16,729 --> 01:56:13,619
disciplines we are likely to learn new

2268
01:56:18,590 --> 01:56:16,739
things about our planet that's a fact

2269
01:56:19,609 --> 01:56:18,600
and that's the commensal science case we

2270
01:56:21,709 --> 01:56:19,619
might want to consider when making

2271
01:56:24,350 --> 01:56:21,719
recommendations here

2272
01:56:31,669 --> 01:56:26,090
does anyone have thoughts questions

2273
01:56:50,950 --> 01:56:34,250
um Carly

2274
01:56:55,609 --> 01:56:53,510
mostly what we've seen and I think

2275
01:56:58,430 --> 01:56:55,619
Nations

2276
01:57:02,930 --> 01:57:01,010
I agree with you and I think that is a

2277
01:57:05,750 --> 01:57:02,940
parameter that we need to Define as a

2278
01:57:10,490 --> 01:57:08,510
uh quickly jump in and Echo some remarks

2279
01:57:13,070 --> 01:57:10,500
I made this morning that yes the a

2280
01:57:14,570 --> 01:57:13,080
change from aerial to anomalous but it's

2281
01:57:16,250 --> 01:57:14,580
also accurate to say that the

2282
01:57:18,709 --> 01:57:16,260
preponderance or events

2283
01:57:21,169 --> 01:57:18,719
are in the aerial domain that being said

2284
01:57:23,089 --> 01:57:21,179
your panel scope has expanded outwards

2285
01:57:26,510 --> 01:57:23,099
and I think we'll hear a little bit from

2286
01:57:29,089 --> 01:57:26,520
David later on that very subject

2287
01:57:31,250 --> 01:57:29,099
I mean I think anomalous

2288
01:57:34,189 --> 01:57:31,260
people often think about it as going

2289
01:57:36,109 --> 01:57:34,199
down and including ocean but I think

2290
01:57:39,950 --> 01:57:36,119
what's very relevant for NASA is going

2291
01:57:41,689 --> 01:57:39,960
out right and you know looking at things

2292
01:57:44,330 --> 01:57:41,699
in our solar system

2293
01:57:45,589 --> 01:57:44,340
and I think in some sense

2294
01:57:48,709 --> 01:57:45,599
um I think there's certain

2295
01:57:51,410 --> 01:57:48,719
responsibilities in you know we look at

2296
01:57:55,129 --> 01:57:51,420
airspace there's FAA responsibilities

2297
01:57:57,189 --> 01:57:55,139
there's DOD responsibilities as you get

2298
01:58:00,050 --> 01:57:57,199
further and further away from the earth

2299
01:58:02,450 --> 01:58:00,060
eventually it's all massive

2300
01:58:04,189 --> 01:58:02,460
once you get out you know towards the

2301
01:58:06,709 --> 01:58:04,199
you know most certainly much of the

2302
01:58:10,609 --> 01:58:06,719
solar system and out uh to our galaxy

2303
01:58:12,890 --> 01:58:10,619
that's all messed up and uh when we

2304
01:58:15,530 --> 01:58:12,900
start you know thinking about things

2305
01:58:16,970 --> 01:58:15,540
like uh you know and this will be you

2306
01:58:18,890 --> 01:58:16,980
know David will get to this observations

2307
01:58:21,709 --> 01:58:18,900
beyond the Earth's atmosphere I think

2308
01:58:25,189 --> 01:58:21,719
this change in language lets us also

2309
01:58:28,550 --> 01:58:25,199
think about uh out you know further out

2310
01:58:30,350 --> 01:58:28,560
in the solar system as well

2311
01:58:32,810 --> 01:58:30,360
good yeah

2312
01:58:35,209 --> 01:58:32,820
other thoughts

2313
01:58:42,950 --> 01:58:35,219
great did I summarize everything totally

2314
01:58:42,960 --> 01:58:52,550
foreign

2315
01:58:57,169 --> 01:58:54,229
all right thank you

2316
01:58:59,750 --> 01:58:57,179
so I thought that was the perfect uh

2317
01:59:03,770 --> 01:58:59,760
intro and segue by Dr Drake for

2318
01:59:07,490 --> 01:59:03,780
addressing why NASA what what is or what

2319
01:59:11,089 --> 01:59:07,500
are NASA's roles in UAP studies

2320
01:59:12,589 --> 01:59:11,099
so NASA primarily is a science-driven

2321
01:59:15,109 --> 01:59:12,599
agency

2322
01:59:17,870 --> 01:59:15,119
it's committed to exploring and

2323
01:59:19,910 --> 01:59:17,880
understanding air and space and this

2324
01:59:22,129 --> 01:59:19,920
includes as we were just discussing the

2325
01:59:24,290 --> 01:59:22,139
unknown right whether that's the

2326
01:59:26,870 --> 01:59:24,300
farthest reaches of the universe or

2327
01:59:29,810 --> 01:59:26,880
right here on our home planet

2328
01:59:32,570 --> 01:59:29,820
in that light NASA has over 60 years of

2329
01:59:36,229 --> 01:59:32,580
experience measuring phenomena in air

2330
01:59:38,689 --> 01:59:36,239
and space in space in air that might be

2331
01:59:40,609 --> 01:59:38,699
Aeronautics astronomy

2332
01:59:43,669 --> 01:59:40,619
as well as measuring other Earth

2333
01:59:46,070 --> 01:59:43,679
phenomena and this may include aquatic

2334
01:59:47,689 --> 01:59:46,080
or atmospheric phenomena as well and

2335
01:59:49,550 --> 01:59:47,699
they do this using the unique vantage

2336
01:59:52,729 --> 01:59:49,560
point of space

2337
01:59:55,609 --> 01:59:52,739
NASA's Mission data and Technical

2338
01:59:58,450 --> 01:59:55,619
expertise in science and engineering

2339
02:00:01,430 --> 01:59:58,460
may also help investigate and understand

2340
02:00:04,310 --> 02:00:01,440
any of the reported phenomena

2341
02:00:06,770 --> 02:00:04,320
it makes sense to explore what new

2342
02:00:09,350 --> 02:00:06,780
observations or measurements or studies

2343
02:00:11,510 --> 02:00:09,360
might contribute to the understanding of

2344
02:00:14,390 --> 02:00:11,520
reported phenomena

2345
02:00:16,189 --> 02:00:14,400
in that light Dr Fox made this point

2346
02:00:19,430 --> 02:00:16,199
this morning there's a tremendous

2347
02:00:21,410 --> 02:00:19,440
Archive of NASA data these are from

2348
02:00:23,330 --> 02:00:21,420
satellites and other space-based and

2349
02:00:25,129 --> 02:00:23,340
ground networks as well as other assets

2350
02:00:28,070 --> 02:00:25,139
and these are freely and openly

2351
02:00:31,669 --> 02:00:28,080
available to the public

2352
02:00:34,790 --> 02:00:31,679
NASA research as was mentioned also

2353
02:00:37,330 --> 02:00:34,800
supports a wide range of methods

2354
02:00:40,490 --> 02:00:37,340
this includes Advanced Data analysis

2355
02:00:43,010 --> 02:00:40,500
modeling Cutting Edge computational and

2356
02:00:45,950 --> 02:00:43,020
data visualization tools and these are

2357
02:00:47,450 --> 02:00:45,960
all useful for investigating unexplained

2358
02:00:50,330 --> 02:00:47,460
observations

2359
02:00:53,149 --> 02:00:50,340
which may be crucial in studying these

2360
02:00:57,290 --> 02:00:56,089
discoveries and results are all publicly

2361
02:00:58,910 --> 02:00:57,300
available

2362
02:01:00,649 --> 02:00:58,920
and this can be something from the

2363
02:01:02,870 --> 02:01:00,659
characterization of extraterrestrial

2364
02:01:04,910 --> 02:01:02,880
solar planets or the whole in the ozone

2365
02:01:07,070 --> 02:01:04,920
layer and these are communicated

2366
02:01:09,169 --> 02:01:07,080
publicly through many outlets through

2367
02:01:11,870 --> 02:01:09,179
the agency

2368
02:01:13,010 --> 02:01:11,880
NASA also has a long-standing public

2369
02:01:15,530 --> 02:01:13,020
Trust

2370
02:01:18,310 --> 02:01:15,540
this is essential to communicate those

2371
02:01:21,109 --> 02:01:18,320
findings about phenomena to the public

2372
02:01:23,510 --> 02:01:21,119
and as was mentioned several times very

2373
02:01:26,209 --> 02:01:23,520
important to destigmatize

2374
02:01:30,589 --> 02:01:26,219
the reporting and raise awareness of

2375
02:01:33,229 --> 02:01:30,599
cultural and social barriers to doing so

2376
02:01:35,089 --> 02:01:33,239
NASA has a unique strength in leveraging

2377
02:01:37,430 --> 02:01:35,099
public and private Partnerships that

2378
02:01:38,990 --> 02:01:37,440
could result in new technologies that

2379
02:01:41,390 --> 02:01:39,000
may be useful in observing and

2380
02:01:43,070 --> 02:01:41,400
understanding reported phenomena

2381
02:01:44,750 --> 02:01:43,080
these Partners could include other

2382
02:01:48,589 --> 02:01:44,760
federal agencies we've heard from the

2383
02:01:50,450 --> 02:01:48,599
FAA today as well as NOAA was identified

2384
02:01:52,970 --> 02:01:50,460
and they may collect data that could

2385
02:01:54,410 --> 02:01:52,980
help to understand reported phenomena

2386
02:01:56,450 --> 02:01:54,420
in addition

2387
02:01:58,910 --> 02:01:56,460
NASA has a strong

2388
02:02:01,129 --> 02:01:58,920
record of international collaboration

2389
02:02:03,410 --> 02:02:01,139
which could be beneficial

2390
02:02:06,050 --> 02:02:03,420
to study any of these phenomena as that

2391
02:02:08,270 --> 02:02:06,060
may require Global cooperation and data

2392
02:02:09,410 --> 02:02:08,280
sharing

2393
02:02:12,709 --> 02:02:09,420
and then

2394
02:02:15,470 --> 02:02:12,719
one thing that really strikes me is that

2395
02:02:16,729 --> 02:02:15,480
new understanding of anomalous events

2396
02:02:19,129 --> 02:02:16,739
really comes from when we bring

2397
02:02:20,750 --> 02:02:19,139
communities together interdisciplinary

2398
02:02:22,850 --> 02:02:20,760
communities that would not necessarily

2399
02:02:24,890 --> 02:02:22,860
collaborate

2400
02:02:26,629 --> 02:02:24,900
um in in my world that might be

2401
02:02:28,189 --> 02:02:26,639
biological and physical oceanographers

2402
02:02:29,390 --> 02:02:28,199
and I tell people to think a little more

2403
02:02:31,729 --> 02:02:29,400
broadly what if we brought together

2404
02:02:33,109 --> 02:02:31,739
astronomers and earth scientists like we

2405
02:02:35,750 --> 02:02:33,119
did on this panel

2406
02:02:37,910 --> 02:02:35,760
so um that those interdisciplinary

2407
02:02:40,430 --> 02:02:37,920
research teams as well as citizen

2408
02:02:43,370 --> 02:02:40,440
scientists could explore historical and

2409
02:02:45,530 --> 02:02:43,380
current NASA and partner data for events

2410
02:02:47,750 --> 02:02:45,540
or more importantly for environmental

2411
02:02:49,490 --> 02:02:47,760
conditions around the time of reported

2412
02:02:51,290 --> 02:02:49,500
events this may help in our

2413
02:02:54,169 --> 02:02:51,300
understanding

2414
02:02:56,510 --> 02:02:54,179
and then finally given NASA's experience

2415
02:02:59,689 --> 02:02:56,520
with long-term missions long-term

2416
02:03:02,270 --> 02:02:59,699
projects and scientific Focus the agency

2417
02:03:04,689 --> 02:03:02,280
is really well equipped to handle the

2418
02:03:08,689 --> 02:03:04,699
extensive and ongoing study of phenomena

2419
02:03:11,450 --> 02:03:08,699
investigation that this likely requires

2420
02:03:14,149 --> 02:03:11,460
so hopefully that gave you some thoughts

2421
02:03:16,729 --> 02:03:14,159
as to why NASA I don't know if any of my

2422
02:03:21,290 --> 02:03:16,739
fellow panelists agree or disagree

2423
02:03:29,270 --> 02:03:25,490
yes father thank you so NASA has a great

2424
02:03:31,790 --> 02:03:29,280
visibility in the community and not and

2425
02:03:34,189 --> 02:03:31,800
uaps are obviously of great interest to

2426
02:03:35,510 --> 02:03:34,199
a very diverse range of people so can

2427
02:03:39,709 --> 02:03:35,520
you speak a bit about the opportunity

2428
02:03:41,330 --> 02:03:39,719
that this provides for NASA to expand

2429
02:03:43,010 --> 02:03:41,340
um you know the knowledge of the

2430
02:03:44,330 --> 02:03:43,020
understanding of the scientific method

2431
02:03:47,209 --> 02:03:44,340
yes

2432
02:03:49,370 --> 02:03:47,219
um so it's a great question uh there are

2433
02:03:50,810 --> 02:03:49,380
multiple opportunities I think UAP

2434
02:03:52,729 --> 02:03:50,820
present

2435
02:03:55,970 --> 02:03:52,739
um the first as I mentioned I think is

2436
02:03:58,250 --> 02:03:55,980
to bring together interdisciplinary

2437
02:04:00,950 --> 02:03:58,260
research teams and scientists and

2438
02:04:03,470 --> 02:04:00,960
citizen scientists to really take a look

2439
02:04:04,510 --> 02:04:03,480
at with an objective and perhaps unique

2440
02:04:07,490 --> 02:04:04,520
eye

2441
02:04:10,850 --> 02:04:07,500
what the NASA data archive actually

2442
02:04:12,410 --> 02:04:10,860
means blend in the Partnerships A

2443
02:04:14,270 --> 02:04:12,420
Renewed partnership that's at the

2444
02:04:17,270 --> 02:04:14,280
federal the international and the

2445
02:04:20,270 --> 02:04:17,280
private level right so I think there are

2446
02:04:22,550 --> 02:04:20,280
any number of Pathways that people could

2447
02:04:25,370 --> 02:04:22,560
pursue that could be really advantageous

2448
02:04:30,950 --> 02:04:25,380
for helping us to understand what's

2449
02:04:30,960 --> 02:04:34,970
the questions

2450
02:04:39,770 --> 02:04:37,970
thank you Paula this is Jolly Wright um

2451
02:04:42,430 --> 02:04:39,780
actually my question and comment

2452
02:04:45,290 --> 02:04:42,440
actually goes to both uh you and Nadia

2453
02:04:48,229 --> 02:04:45,300
uh Dr Kirkpatrick gave us a definition

2454
02:04:50,089 --> 02:04:48,239
of anomalous that was that it was not

2455
02:04:51,589 --> 02:04:50,099
readily understandable to the operator

2456
02:04:54,109 --> 02:04:51,599
or the sensor

2457
02:04:56,209 --> 02:04:54,119
and from the NASA's perspective I'm for

2458
02:04:58,370 --> 02:04:56,219
our panel I think we have to consider a

2459
02:05:01,189 --> 02:04:58,380
broader definition if we're talking

2460
02:05:03,410 --> 02:05:01,199
about citizen science and I'm curious of

2461
02:05:05,149 --> 02:05:03,420
how we incorporate that especially

2462
02:05:08,030 --> 02:05:05,159
within the communication avenues that we

2463
02:05:11,629 --> 02:05:10,189
it's a good question

2464
02:05:12,770 --> 02:05:11,639
um so

2465
02:05:15,709 --> 02:05:12,780
um

2466
02:05:17,870 --> 02:05:15,719
not all data in an archive are user

2467
02:05:20,870 --> 02:05:17,880
friendly right right out of the the gate

2468
02:05:23,689 --> 02:05:20,880
but uh I think NASA does an excellent

2469
02:05:25,910 --> 02:05:23,699
job making things like quick look or

2470
02:05:27,950 --> 02:05:25,920
browse products available if you can go

2471
02:05:29,629 --> 02:05:27,960
on the NASA website you can look at

2472
02:05:31,910 --> 02:05:29,639
different aspects of different things

2473
02:05:35,870 --> 02:05:31,920
that the agency has in its mission to

2474
02:05:37,490 --> 02:05:35,880
study and I think if nothing else people

2475
02:05:39,169 --> 02:05:37,500
have become a lot more in touch with

2476
02:05:42,470 --> 02:05:39,179
their surroundings and their environment

2477
02:05:44,229 --> 02:05:42,480
and the changes happening there and so I

2478
02:05:47,629 --> 02:05:44,239
think there's probably an opportunity

2479
02:05:50,629 --> 02:05:47,639
for people to maybe not become overnight

2480
02:05:53,450 --> 02:05:50,639
experts in how to process satellite data

2481
02:05:56,209 --> 02:05:53,460
and use it for basic research in a

2482
02:05:57,770 --> 02:05:56,219
complex fashion but there are ways to

2483
02:06:00,290 --> 02:05:57,780
utilize those data to look at your

2484
02:06:02,570 --> 02:06:00,300
environment if you think you've you know

2485
02:06:05,570 --> 02:06:02,580
seen something or you wish to report

2486
02:06:07,310 --> 02:06:05,580
something so communication engagement in

2487
02:06:10,370 --> 02:06:07,320
the public I think is a really important

2488
02:06:11,750 --> 02:06:10,380
part of the destigmatization for sure

2489
02:06:13,910 --> 02:06:11,760
Nadia I don't know if you have anything

2490
02:06:16,490 --> 02:06:13,920
to add

2491
02:06:18,229 --> 02:06:16,500
um I was I was struck by the phrase not

2492
02:06:20,570 --> 02:06:18,239
readily understandable I felt like that

2493
02:06:22,669 --> 02:06:20,580
was actually doing a lot of work

2494
02:06:24,410 --> 02:06:22,679
um so I think for our purposes we

2495
02:06:26,089 --> 02:06:24,420
probably want to come up with a slightly

2496
02:06:32,209 --> 02:06:26,099
more specific definition of what

2497
02:06:44,750 --> 02:06:36,770
okay that's good thanks Federica rope

2498
02:06:49,729 --> 02:06:46,550
hello everybody my name is Federica

2499
02:06:51,530 --> 02:06:49,739
Bianco I am an astrophysicist and a data

2500
02:06:53,810 --> 02:06:51,540
scientist and I bring this perspective

2501
02:06:55,669 --> 02:06:53,820
to the panel so for the next few minutes

2502
02:06:56,810 --> 02:06:55,679
I want to emphasize some of the things

2503
02:06:59,030 --> 02:06:56,820
that my colleagues have already

2504
02:07:01,790 --> 02:06:59,040
mentioned about the data particularly

2505
02:07:04,310 --> 02:07:01,800
the status of the data that exist and

2506
02:07:07,609 --> 02:07:04,320
what the data that we should collect

2507
02:07:08,570 --> 02:07:07,619
um to really understand what maybe

2508
02:07:11,089 --> 02:07:08,580
um

2509
02:07:12,649 --> 02:07:11,099
we've already heard in a few cases by a

2510
02:07:14,450 --> 02:07:12,659
few people that NASA's role is to

2511
02:07:16,550 --> 02:07:14,460
explore the universe through the

2512
02:07:18,470 --> 02:07:16,560
scientific method the application of the

2513
02:07:21,350 --> 02:07:18,480
scientific method to Discovery requires

2514
02:07:23,930 --> 02:07:21,360
that the data meets some standards that

2515
02:07:25,189 --> 02:07:23,940
allow the data-driven approach and there

2516
02:07:26,689 --> 02:07:25,199
are many standards that have been

2517
02:07:29,089 --> 02:07:26,699
established in the scientific community

2518
02:07:31,129 --> 02:07:29,099
over the years I can mentioned one for

2519
02:07:33,370 --> 02:07:31,139
example it's called the fair standard

2520
02:07:35,350 --> 02:07:33,380
where Fair stands for findability

2521
02:07:39,350 --> 02:07:35,360
accessibility

2522
02:07:42,169 --> 02:07:39,360
interoperability and reusability

2523
02:07:44,930 --> 02:07:42,179
the current status of the of the data

2524
02:07:46,850 --> 02:07:44,940
about uaps does not meet these standards

2525
02:07:48,890 --> 02:07:46,860
the their collection is inconsistent

2526
02:07:51,589 --> 02:07:48,900
it's in homogeneous it's uncalibrated

2527
02:07:54,830 --> 02:07:51,599
the data are poorly documented and

2528
02:07:59,030 --> 02:07:56,689
um they're also not systematically

2529
02:08:00,830 --> 02:07:59,040
retrievable which causes the problem in

2530
02:08:03,109 --> 02:08:00,840
automation of the analysis

2531
02:08:04,790 --> 02:08:03,119
so web could benefit from data science

2532
02:08:06,290 --> 02:08:04,800
and machine learning methods from

2533
02:08:08,570 --> 02:08:06,300
artificial intelligence that is

2534
02:08:10,669 --> 02:08:08,580
developing at a rapid Pace but machine

2535
02:08:13,370 --> 02:08:10,679
learning and AI cannot be applied until

2536
02:08:15,470 --> 02:08:13,380
the data mean these standards even to

2537
02:08:17,390 --> 02:08:15,480
study a single event currently requires

2538
02:08:19,790 --> 02:08:17,400
a significant lift in retrieving the

2539
02:08:22,609 --> 02:08:19,800
data and the metadata that may or may

2540
02:08:24,709 --> 02:08:22,619
not be available and this lift is at the

2541
02:08:26,750 --> 02:08:24,719
moment entirely person power which means

2542
02:08:28,490 --> 02:08:26,760
that it cannot be automated to apply

2543
02:08:31,370 --> 02:08:28,500
machine learning methods

2544
02:08:33,050 --> 02:08:31,380
organized repositories need to exist to

2545
02:08:35,209 --> 02:08:33,060
enable the automation of retrieval of

2546
02:08:37,310 --> 02:08:35,219
the data and the metadata and this is a

2547
02:08:39,709 --> 02:08:37,320
necessary premise to enable the

2548
02:08:41,750 --> 02:08:39,719
systematic scientific approach to the

2549
02:08:43,609 --> 02:08:41,760
study of uuaps

2550
02:08:46,129 --> 02:08:43,619
anomaly detection is a well-developed

2551
02:08:47,810 --> 02:08:46,139
although notoriously hard discipline and

2552
02:08:49,550 --> 02:08:47,820
which has seen tremendous advances

2553
02:08:50,810 --> 02:08:49,560
recently with data science and machine

2554
02:08:53,990 --> 02:08:50,820
learning

2555
02:08:56,390 --> 02:08:54,000
usually this means detecting rare and

2556
02:08:59,030 --> 02:08:56,400
unusual signals in a complex that is

2557
02:08:59,810 --> 02:08:59,040
noisy and Rich with phenomena that we

2558
02:09:02,209 --> 02:08:59,820
know

2559
02:09:03,950 --> 02:09:02,219
so there are two general approaches to

2560
02:09:06,649 --> 02:09:03,960
anomaly detection in the scientific

2561
02:09:08,870 --> 02:09:06,659
Community one is the following if we

2562
02:09:10,550 --> 02:09:08,880
know the signal that we expect we can

2563
02:09:12,950 --> 02:09:10,560
model it and we can simulate it and

2564
02:09:15,709 --> 02:09:12,960
maybe inject it in our data so we can

2565
02:09:18,410 --> 02:09:15,719
develop methods that are specific to

2566
02:09:20,149 --> 02:09:18,420
finding those exact signals or signals

2567
02:09:21,950 --> 02:09:20,159
that are similar to those

2568
02:09:23,570 --> 02:09:21,960
and we might be able to conceptualize

2569
02:09:25,970 --> 02:09:23,580
signals coming from physical systems

2570
02:09:27,770 --> 02:09:25,980
that responds to the laws of physics as

2571
02:09:29,870 --> 02:09:27,780
we know them but we cannot

2572
02:09:32,570 --> 02:09:29,880
comprehensively produce all possible

2573
02:09:35,450 --> 02:09:32,580
signals that could relate to or explain

2574
02:09:37,669 --> 02:09:35,460
uaps so the alternative approach in

2575
02:09:40,129 --> 02:09:37,679
detecting anomalies requires a thorough

2576
02:09:43,669 --> 02:09:40,139
and deep understanding of what is normal

2577
02:09:46,129 --> 02:09:43,679
and usual to tease out what is unusual

2578
02:09:48,530 --> 02:09:46,139
and unlike the rest

2579
02:09:50,450 --> 02:09:48,540
these methods typically found in the

2580
02:09:51,830 --> 02:09:50,460
realm of what we call unsupervised

2581
02:09:53,030 --> 02:09:51,840
machine learning

2582
02:09:55,669 --> 02:09:53,040
uh

2583
02:09:57,770 --> 02:09:55,679
what is usual maybe the balloons the

2584
02:10:00,229 --> 02:09:57,780
aircrafts and what wealth of natural

2585
02:10:02,750 --> 02:10:00,239
phenomena that we have heard of and what

2586
02:10:05,209 --> 02:10:02,760
is unusual what is an anomaly means

2587
02:10:07,189 --> 02:10:05,219
anything in there is not consistent with

2588
02:10:08,870 --> 02:10:07,199
the way in which those things look in

2589
02:10:11,149 --> 02:10:08,880
our data

2590
02:10:13,250 --> 02:10:11,159
once the enormous signal is detected it

2591
02:10:15,589 --> 02:10:13,260
can be studied in more depth either

2592
02:10:17,990 --> 02:10:15,599
through the discovery data itself but

2593
02:10:19,850 --> 02:10:18,000
that may not be sufficient so then we

2594
02:10:22,729 --> 02:10:19,860
may need to collect additional data for

2595
02:10:24,709 --> 02:10:22,739
to study these on these anomalies and

2596
02:10:27,470 --> 02:10:24,719
this is something in astrophysics we

2597
02:10:30,050 --> 02:10:27,480
typically refer to as follow-up data

2598
02:10:32,149 --> 02:10:30,060
this can be very hard especially if the

2599
02:10:34,250 --> 02:10:32,159
phenomena there are anomals are also

2600
02:10:37,070 --> 02:10:34,260
ephemeral in time so you have to

2601
02:10:39,290 --> 02:10:37,080
promptly respond to the detection and

2602
02:10:41,390 --> 02:10:39,300
set up follow-up observations it's an

2603
02:10:43,070 --> 02:10:41,400
extremely hard game but it's something

2604
02:10:45,410 --> 02:10:43,080
that is seeing a large developing in

2605
02:10:47,510 --> 02:10:45,420
astrophysics in recent years with the

2606
02:10:49,129 --> 02:10:47,520
study of anomalous detections in the

2607
02:10:51,530 --> 02:10:49,139
universe

2608
02:10:52,850 --> 02:10:51,540
this approach relies entirely on a

2609
02:10:54,890 --> 02:10:52,860
comprehensive and systematic

2610
02:10:57,229 --> 02:10:54,900
organization of the data which is

2611
02:11:00,350 --> 02:10:57,239
Paramount and on a deep understanding of

2612
02:11:02,149 --> 02:11:00,360
all the data that is actually usual and

2613
02:11:03,830 --> 02:11:02,159
known

2614
02:11:05,270 --> 02:11:03,840
the data that we might want to collect

2615
02:11:07,970 --> 02:11:05,280
ideally will be collected in a

2616
02:11:11,209 --> 02:11:07,980
multi-sensor and multi-platform and

2617
02:11:13,089 --> 02:11:11,219
multi-site manner eyewitnesses reports I

2618
02:11:16,129 --> 02:11:13,099
want to elevate with Dr Drake said

2619
02:11:17,870 --> 02:11:16,139
cannot a certain the nature of uaps

2620
02:11:19,129 --> 02:11:17,880
however they should be considered

2621
02:11:21,350 --> 02:11:19,139
because they may contain important

2622
02:11:24,290 --> 02:11:21,360
information for example persistent

2623
02:11:27,169 --> 02:11:24,300
citing locations or seasonality but they

2624
02:11:30,410 --> 02:11:27,179
only really work if joined with

2625
02:11:31,910 --> 02:11:30,420
quantitative data collected by sensors

2626
02:11:33,410 --> 02:11:31,920
as well as biophysical and

2627
02:11:34,790 --> 02:11:33,420
psychophysical assessments of the

2628
02:11:37,250 --> 02:11:34,800
witness and the impact that the

2629
02:11:40,729 --> 02:11:37,260
experience has on them to really reveal

2630
02:11:43,669 --> 02:11:41,450
um

2631
02:11:46,189 --> 02:11:43,679
you've heard it from from my colleagues

2632
02:11:47,990 --> 02:11:46,199
a number of times the data needs to be

2633
02:11:50,930 --> 02:11:48,000
collected by sensors they need to be

2634
02:11:53,390 --> 02:11:50,940
calibrated or calibratable so we need to

2635
02:11:55,850 --> 02:11:53,400
collect not only the data images sounds

2636
02:11:58,850 --> 02:11:55,860
Spectrum characterization of what we see

2637
02:12:00,589 --> 02:11:58,860
but metadata the sensor type the brand

2638
02:12:02,629 --> 02:12:00,599
the brand of the sensor the noise

2639
02:12:04,729 --> 02:12:02,639
characteristics time of the acquisition

2640
02:12:07,850 --> 02:12:04,739
instrument sensitivity as well as

2641
02:12:09,290 --> 02:12:07,860
information about the circumstances of

2642
02:12:11,990 --> 02:12:09,300
the data collection for example

2643
02:12:14,030 --> 02:12:12,000
temperature or the location or the

2644
02:12:16,550 --> 02:12:14,040
conditions in which the sensor is at the

2645
02:12:18,350 --> 02:12:16,560
time of collecting the data the data

2646
02:12:20,750 --> 02:12:18,360
should be collected simultaneously by

2647
02:12:22,790 --> 02:12:20,760
different platforms ideally ideally in

2648
02:12:25,310 --> 02:12:22,800
different locations in a multi-sensor

2649
02:12:27,169 --> 02:12:25,320
system so some of the data that we may

2650
02:12:29,450 --> 02:12:27,179
want to collect are images but also

2651
02:12:31,609 --> 02:12:29,460
temperature sound recording spectral

2652
02:12:35,810 --> 02:12:31,619
data emissivity that tells you the color

2653
02:12:38,390 --> 02:12:35,820
in a very fine grid as well as other as

2654
02:12:39,770 --> 02:12:38,400
well as monitoring the motion of objects

2655
02:12:42,890 --> 02:12:39,780
which has been very important to

2656
02:12:44,570 --> 02:12:42,900
identify what we have seen as uaps that

2657
02:12:47,030 --> 02:12:44,580
have been reported

2658
02:12:48,470 --> 02:12:47,040
much of this certainly can be achieved

2659
02:12:51,709 --> 02:12:48,480
with professional grade infrastructure

2660
02:12:54,530 --> 02:12:51,719
and both new and existing infrastructure

2661
02:12:56,569 --> 02:12:54,540
to do that such as astrophysical and

2662
02:12:58,729 --> 02:12:56,579
geographical observatories both on the

2663
02:13:00,530 --> 02:12:58,739
ground and satellites some Modern

2664
02:13:02,270 --> 02:13:00,540
observatories in particular are designed

2665
02:13:04,550 --> 02:13:02,280
for the reflection of time anomalies

2666
02:13:06,410 --> 02:13:04,560
specifically as well as for the

2667
02:13:09,350 --> 02:13:06,420
detection of objects that move rapidly

2668
02:13:12,350 --> 02:13:09,360
in space near Earth objects asteroids

2669
02:13:14,450 --> 02:13:12,360
meteors Etc so those could be leveraged

2670
02:13:16,970 --> 02:13:14,460
for the study of uaps

2671
02:13:18,890 --> 02:13:16,980
there is also some effort in ongoing in

2672
02:13:20,750 --> 02:13:18,900
the developing of facilities that are

2673
02:13:23,629 --> 02:13:20,760
specifically to detect designed to

2674
02:13:25,129 --> 02:13:23,639
detect uaps and many of those comply

2675
02:13:26,689 --> 02:13:25,139
with the characteristics that I just

2676
02:13:28,669 --> 02:13:26,699
described

2677
02:13:31,370 --> 02:13:28,679
this level of information though can

2678
02:13:33,589 --> 02:13:31,380
also be obtained by the public we could

2679
02:13:36,950 --> 02:13:33,599
crowdsource the data collection if a

2680
02:13:38,810 --> 02:13:36,960
platform to crowdsource exists that

2681
02:13:40,850 --> 02:13:38,820
supports the collection of data and

2682
02:13:43,310 --> 02:13:40,860
metadata and the transmission of data

2683
02:13:44,990 --> 02:13:43,320
and metadata and we think that NASA

2684
02:13:47,649 --> 02:13:45,000
might be able to play an important role

2685
02:13:52,430 --> 02:13:47,659
in the development of this platform

2686
02:13:54,050 --> 02:13:52,440
to Echo Dr Bon Tempe said NASA has a

2687
02:13:56,149 --> 02:13:54,060
wealth of experience in coordinating

2688
02:13:58,189 --> 02:13:56,159
scientific studies efforts across

2689
02:13:59,930 --> 02:13:58,199
discipline and domains serving as a

2690
02:14:02,089 --> 02:13:59,940
bridge between communities in the

2691
02:14:04,729 --> 02:14:02,099
interdisciplinary studies and studies

2692
02:14:07,550 --> 02:14:04,739
across different countries

2693
02:14:09,649 --> 02:14:07,560
all of these can be supported all of

2694
02:14:12,169 --> 02:14:09,659
this can be leveraged to support the

2695
02:14:14,450 --> 02:14:12,179
work of the other agencies in the

2696
02:14:18,530 --> 02:14:14,460
identification and explaining explaining

2697
02:14:21,050 --> 02:14:18,540
uaps NASA also has a really important

2698
02:14:23,270 --> 02:14:21,060
experience in data curation we have

2699
02:14:25,490 --> 02:14:23,280
heard about the sophistication of the

2700
02:14:28,069 --> 02:14:25,500
analysis of the data that NASA provides

2701
02:14:30,669 --> 02:14:28,079
of the sophistication of the calibration

2702
02:14:33,350 --> 02:14:30,679
the data that NASA shares

2703
02:14:37,189 --> 02:14:33,360
arrives to we have heard about the open

2704
02:14:39,109 --> 02:14:37,199
data policy that NASA data goes under

2705
02:14:41,510 --> 02:14:39,119
furthermore NASA has recently

2706
02:14:44,330 --> 02:14:41,520
spearheaded an effort to review NASA and

2707
02:14:47,089 --> 02:14:44,340
nazam partner archival data to prepare

2708
02:14:48,589 --> 02:14:47,099
them for machine learning and AI so that

2709
02:14:51,709 --> 02:14:48,599
data can be served to the community

2710
02:14:53,750 --> 02:14:51,719
directly and ready to apply AI methods

2711
02:14:56,089 --> 02:14:53,760
on it this is an important experience

2712
02:14:58,850 --> 02:14:56,099
that could be leveraged in the study of

2713
02:15:02,030 --> 02:14:58,860
uaps however we do want to emphasize

2714
02:15:04,729 --> 02:15:02,040
that the current status of the UAP data

2715
02:15:07,129 --> 02:15:04,739
will make this list really hard compared

2716
02:15:08,930 --> 02:15:07,139
to even what is being done by NASA for

2717
02:15:11,330 --> 02:15:08,940
astrophysical data

2718
02:15:12,890 --> 02:15:11,340
and finally I wanted to emphasize what

2719
02:15:15,830 --> 02:15:12,900
my colleague said NASA has a great

2720
02:15:18,589 --> 02:15:15,840
visibility uaps have a great power of

2721
02:15:21,169 --> 02:15:18,599
great public interest and this could be

2722
02:15:23,149 --> 02:15:21,179
an opportunity to really increase the

2723
02:15:25,370 --> 02:15:23,159
reach of science help people understand

2724
02:15:27,530 --> 02:15:25,380
the scientific process and maybe

2725
02:15:30,050 --> 02:15:27,540
diversify the scientific Community by

2726
02:15:32,030 --> 02:15:30,060
attracting new Talent into the

2727
02:15:34,010 --> 02:15:32,040
scientific Community due to the

2728
02:15:38,569 --> 02:15:34,020
visibility of the problem

2729
02:15:40,729 --> 02:15:38,579
and I think that's one of my remarks

2730
02:15:43,010 --> 02:15:40,739
questions

2731
02:15:46,069 --> 02:15:43,020
do you want to go Reggie

2732
02:15:48,970 --> 02:15:46,079
so on the whole crowdsourcing front and

2733
02:15:51,410 --> 02:15:48,980
getting reports from citizen scientists

2734
02:15:53,750 --> 02:15:51,420
uh what do you think along those lines

2735
02:15:57,169 --> 02:15:53,760
is it providing a set of guidelines for

2736
02:15:59,930 --> 02:15:57,179
how you report is it open sourcing a set

2737
02:16:02,770 --> 02:15:59,940
of applications for cell phones to be

2738
02:16:06,530 --> 02:16:02,780
able to pull in a lot the right metadata

2739
02:16:08,810 --> 02:16:06,540
what does that look like yeah so um I

2740
02:16:12,950 --> 02:16:08,820
think guidance would just a settle

2741
02:16:14,689 --> 02:16:12,960
guidance of best practices Etc would

2742
02:16:17,689 --> 02:16:14,699
just now be sufficient I think what

2743
02:16:19,430 --> 02:16:17,699
needs to be provided is a platform you

2744
02:16:21,129 --> 02:16:19,440
mentioned cell phones cell phones have

2745
02:16:23,569 --> 02:16:21,139
been used for

2746
02:16:26,750 --> 02:16:23,579
crowdsourcing the study and detection of

2747
02:16:28,910 --> 02:16:26,760
a number of things in astrophysics in

2748
02:16:32,030 --> 02:16:28,920
space science so that can definitely be

2749
02:16:36,049 --> 02:16:32,040
done the issue I think is going to be to

2750
02:16:37,669 --> 02:16:36,059
make sure that this platform is that

2751
02:16:40,490 --> 02:16:37,679
this platform reaches a large enough

2752
02:16:42,230 --> 02:16:40,500
Community to really have a crowd to

2753
02:16:44,150 --> 02:16:42,240
Source the problem and coordination

2754
02:16:46,549 --> 02:16:44,160
something that this could achieve for

2755
02:16:48,469 --> 02:16:46,559
example is the follow-up that I

2756
02:16:51,349 --> 02:16:48,479
mentioned earlier right so we need this

2757
02:16:54,110 --> 02:16:51,359
community that would use the

2758
02:16:56,750 --> 02:16:54,120
crowdsourcing facilities to be connected

2759
02:16:59,990 --> 02:16:56,760
so that if something is cited by one

2760
02:17:01,730 --> 02:17:00,000
person that message can go across and a

2761
02:17:04,730 --> 02:17:01,740
broader Community can point their

2762
02:17:07,969 --> 02:17:04,740
sensors to the problem

2763
02:17:09,650 --> 02:17:07,979
to the sighting and the data has to be

2764
02:17:10,849 --> 02:17:09,660
transmitted to that has to be

2765
02:17:14,290 --> 02:17:10,859
transmitted to a place that can

2766
02:17:16,610 --> 02:17:14,300
centralize it and curate it

2767
02:17:18,049 --> 02:17:16,620
yeah please feel free to say this is a

2768
02:17:20,509 --> 02:17:18,059
bad idea but if you thought about

2769
02:17:21,650 --> 02:17:20,519
synthetic data as you were talking I was

2770
02:17:24,230 --> 02:17:21,660
thinking you know given the fact we

2771
02:17:26,750 --> 02:17:24,240
don't have enough quality data to train

2772
02:17:28,370 --> 02:17:26,760
a net a neural net if we're to generate

2773
02:17:30,410 --> 02:17:28,380
synthetic data based on the information

2774
02:17:32,089 --> 02:17:30,420
we do have and then filling out the

2775
02:17:34,009 --> 02:17:32,099
other characteristics as we might guess

2776
02:17:37,129 --> 02:17:34,019
because that that help us train

2777
02:17:39,230 --> 02:17:37,139
something to iterate an AI to be to find

2778
02:17:41,690 --> 02:17:39,240
other correlations within data as we get

2779
02:17:44,089 --> 02:17:41,700
it so we do it all the time in data

2780
02:17:46,910 --> 02:17:44,099
science right we do generate data sets

2781
02:17:48,770 --> 02:17:46,920
where the data sets our sparse or scars

2782
02:17:51,290 --> 02:17:48,780
and we cannot train machine learning

2783
02:17:53,270 --> 02:17:51,300
models it's a risky business because in

2784
02:17:55,610 --> 02:17:53,280
the data that we generate we embed the

2785
02:17:57,169 --> 02:17:55,620
bias that we have so we invite are

2786
02:17:59,570 --> 02:17:57,179
thinking about the data the way in which

2787
02:18:01,009 --> 02:17:59,580
we think the data looks and the way in

2788
02:18:03,110 --> 02:18:01,019
which the things that they anomalies

2789
02:18:05,690 --> 02:18:03,120
look so a particularly in anomaly

2790
02:18:07,070 --> 02:18:05,700
detection it is a very difficult thing

2791
02:18:08,929 --> 02:18:07,080
to do

2792
02:18:11,150 --> 02:18:08,939
um to try to make sure that you don't

2793
02:18:13,790 --> 02:18:11,160
buy and see your models to well you know

2794
02:18:15,709 --> 02:18:13,800
I want to come back to this topic of

2795
02:18:17,509 --> 02:18:15,719
anomaly discussion in our general

2796
02:18:19,910 --> 02:18:17,519
discussion we're sort of starting to run

2797
02:18:22,190 --> 02:18:19,920
a little late so I want to cut off

2798
02:18:25,490 --> 02:18:22,200
questions now but we do have a little

2799
02:18:27,530 --> 02:18:25,500
time later at the end so don't forget

2800
02:18:29,270 --> 02:18:27,540
don't forget your questions bring them

2801
02:18:31,190 --> 02:18:29,280
up again in discussion and we'll we'll

2802
02:18:40,490 --> 02:18:31,200
talk more more later

2803
02:18:43,849 --> 02:18:42,169
all right good afternoon

2804
02:18:46,129 --> 02:18:43,859
my name is David grinspoon I'm a

2805
02:18:48,770 --> 02:18:46,139
planetary scientist and astrobiologist

2806
02:18:51,349 --> 02:18:48,780
and I'm going to talk for uh just a

2807
02:18:56,389 --> 02:18:51,359
couple of minutes about how observations

2808
02:18:58,849 --> 02:18:56,399
beyond Earth are relevant to um our uh

2809
02:19:00,290 --> 02:18:58,859
study of uaps

2810
02:19:03,169 --> 02:19:00,300
um

2811
02:19:05,270 --> 02:19:03,179
many of NASA's missions are at least in

2812
02:19:09,009 --> 02:19:05,280
part focused on answering the question

2813
02:19:11,509 --> 02:19:09,019
of whether life exists beyond Earth

2814
02:19:14,270 --> 02:19:11,519
astrobiology is the study of the origin

2815
02:19:16,370 --> 02:19:14,280
Evolution distribution and future of

2816
02:19:19,070 --> 02:19:16,380
life in the universe

2817
02:19:21,830 --> 02:19:19,080
as part of this we consider how to

2818
02:19:23,929 --> 02:19:21,840
search for biosignatures observations we

2819
02:19:27,349 --> 02:19:23,939
can make of other planets which may

2820
02:19:30,230 --> 02:19:27,359
might betray the presence of life so we

2821
02:19:32,629 --> 02:19:30,240
look for things like anomalous gases in

2822
02:19:35,690 --> 02:19:32,639
the atmospheres of planets and other

2823
02:19:38,209 --> 02:19:35,700
anomalies which may possibly reveal the

2824
02:19:40,370 --> 02:19:38,219
presence of life when we discover such

2825
02:19:42,830 --> 02:19:40,380
an anomaly we don't

2826
02:19:45,410 --> 02:19:42,840
conclude that we've discovered life we

2827
02:19:48,469 --> 02:19:45,420
seek more data to understand what we're

2828
02:19:49,910 --> 02:19:48,479
seeing and often this leads to other new

2829
02:19:51,889 --> 02:19:49,920
discoveries

2830
02:19:54,650 --> 02:19:51,899
similarly we can talk about looking for

2831
02:19:56,510 --> 02:19:54,660
techno signatures observations we can

2832
02:19:59,690 --> 02:19:56,520
make which might reveal the presence of

2833
02:20:01,790 --> 02:19:59,700
technological activity somewhere else

2834
02:20:04,250 --> 02:20:01,800
NASA is also supporting some research

2835
02:20:07,310 --> 02:20:04,260
studying techno signatures

2836
02:20:09,110 --> 02:20:07,320
while there is a present no evidence

2837
02:20:11,750 --> 02:20:09,120
we're aware of suggesting an

2838
02:20:13,849 --> 02:20:11,760
extraterrestrial source for uaps

2839
02:20:16,429 --> 02:20:13,859
these existing NASA programs are

2840
02:20:19,490 --> 02:20:16,439
relevant to the question of uaps in at

2841
02:20:21,950 --> 02:20:19,500
least two ways is it a known or unknown

2842
02:20:23,830 --> 02:20:21,960
natural phenomenon must it be

2843
02:20:27,770 --> 02:20:23,840
technological

2844
02:20:29,990 --> 02:20:27,780
is it known terrestrial technology

2845
02:20:31,910 --> 02:20:30,000
so these scientific communities have

2846
02:20:34,190 --> 02:20:31,920
relevant experience in determining and

2847
02:20:36,590 --> 02:20:34,200
communicating about whether observations

2848
02:20:39,530 --> 02:20:36,600
which first appeared to reveal

2849
02:20:43,370 --> 02:20:39,540
extraordinary evidence actually justify

2850
02:20:47,210 --> 02:20:44,990
second

2851
02:20:49,790 --> 02:20:47,220
if we do acknowledge an extraterrestrial

2852
02:20:53,030 --> 02:20:49,800
Source however unlikely as one

2853
02:20:54,830 --> 02:20:53,040
possibility for uaps then these objects

2854
02:20:57,550 --> 02:20:54,840
must have traveled through the solar

2855
02:21:01,370 --> 02:20:57,560
system to get here

2856
02:21:03,349 --> 02:21:01,380
Within the scientific Community there's

2857
02:21:06,170 --> 02:21:03,359
a widespread

2858
02:21:07,969 --> 02:21:06,180
but by no means Universal belief that

2859
02:21:10,610 --> 02:21:07,979
there are extraterrestrial civilizations

2860
02:21:12,410 --> 02:21:10,620
and we have a well-developed rationale

2861
02:21:14,270 --> 02:21:12,420
there's a lot of literature for

2862
02:21:17,030 --> 02:21:14,280
discussing this which I I won't go into

2863
02:21:18,290 --> 02:21:17,040
now uh in the interest of brevity but it

2864
02:21:20,630 --> 02:21:18,300
has to do with the vast numbers of

2865
02:21:22,730 --> 02:21:20,640
exoplanets and the time scales of

2866
02:21:24,469 --> 02:21:22,740
evolution and the possibility of

2867
02:21:26,389 --> 02:21:24,479
convergent evolution on different

2868
02:21:29,170 --> 02:21:26,399
planets leading to somewhat similar

2869
02:21:32,990 --> 02:21:29,180
outcomes it's a fascinating subject but

2870
02:21:35,090 --> 02:21:33,000
uh the the relevant Point here is that

2871
02:21:36,910 --> 02:21:35,100
the same rationale which support

2872
02:21:39,530 --> 02:21:36,920
supports the idea the extra

2873
02:21:42,830 --> 02:21:39,540
extraterrestrial civilizations may exist

2874
02:21:44,450 --> 02:21:42,840
and may be detectable also supports the

2875
02:21:47,150 --> 02:21:44,460
idea that finding extraterrestrial

2876
02:21:49,010 --> 02:21:47,160
artifacts in our own solar system is at

2877
02:21:51,349 --> 02:21:49,020
least plausible

2878
02:21:53,030 --> 02:21:51,359
NASA is the lead Agency for solar system

2879
02:21:55,250 --> 02:21:53,040
exploration

2880
02:21:56,870 --> 02:21:55,260
it already has an active program of

2881
02:21:59,270 --> 02:21:56,880
detecting objects in our Solar

2882
02:22:01,790 --> 02:21:59,280
neighborhood using both ground-based and

2883
02:22:03,349 --> 02:22:01,800
space-based facilities and it could

2884
02:22:05,570 --> 02:22:03,359
leverage those capabilities to search

2885
02:22:07,190 --> 02:22:05,580
for objects in space with anomalous

2886
02:22:09,429 --> 02:22:07,200
motion

2887
02:22:12,830 --> 02:22:09,439
anomalous trajectories

2888
02:22:15,650 --> 02:22:12,840
unusual light curves anomalous spectral

2889
02:22:17,929 --> 02:22:15,660
signatures or other characteristics

2890
02:22:20,870 --> 02:22:17,939
uh most of the solar system has not been

2891
02:22:23,750 --> 02:22:20,880
searched for artifacts or anomalies and

2892
02:22:26,210 --> 02:22:23,760
these modest data analysis efforts could

2893
02:22:28,490 --> 02:22:26,220
potentially be applied to existing and

2894
02:22:31,550 --> 02:22:28,500
planned planetary missions

2895
02:22:33,290 --> 02:22:31,560
the Galaxy does not stop at the edge of

2896
02:22:36,410 --> 02:22:33,300
the solar system and the solar system

2897
02:22:38,570 --> 02:22:36,420
does not stop at the top of the Earth's

2898
02:22:42,290 --> 02:22:38,580
atmosphere it's all a Continuum of

2899
02:22:44,750 --> 02:22:42,300
possibilities worthy of Investigation

2900
02:22:47,690 --> 02:22:44,760
if NASA applies the same rigorous

2901
02:22:49,730 --> 02:22:47,700
methodology toward uaps that it applies

2902
02:22:52,910 --> 02:22:49,740
to the study of possible life elsewhere

2903
02:22:54,710 --> 02:22:52,920
than we stand to learn something new and

2904
02:22:57,710 --> 02:22:54,720
interesting whatever the ultimate

2905
02:23:00,650 --> 02:22:57,720
explanation is of those phenomena

2906
02:23:03,770 --> 02:23:00,660
and that's all I wanted to say right now

2907
02:23:08,630 --> 02:23:03,780
we have time for uh one or two comments

2908
02:23:11,929 --> 02:23:10,070
yeah

2909
02:23:13,910 --> 02:23:11,939
um thank you for that you know it struck

2910
02:23:17,809 --> 02:23:13,920
me while you were speaking

2911
02:23:19,969 --> 02:23:17,819
um about bio signatures that we do a lot

2912
02:23:21,849 --> 02:23:19,979
of that type of analysis right and our

2913
02:23:24,830 --> 02:23:21,859
home planet in in different capacities

2914
02:23:26,450 --> 02:23:24,840
and so it's more of a comment but I

2915
02:23:28,910 --> 02:23:26,460
wondered your thoughts on you know

2916
02:23:31,610 --> 02:23:28,920
bringing together those communities that

2917
02:23:34,450 --> 02:23:31,620
might not work together and whether that

2918
02:23:37,969 --> 02:23:34,460
would Aid in you know not only

2919
02:23:40,250 --> 02:23:37,979
establishing what's normal but you know

2920
02:23:42,650 --> 02:23:40,260
enabling the detection or maybe the

2921
02:23:45,770 --> 02:23:42,660
understanding explanation of a UAP if

2922
02:23:47,030 --> 02:23:45,780
reported absolutely I mean uh you know

2923
02:23:49,370 --> 02:23:47,040
the focus of my talk was was

2924
02:23:51,889 --> 02:23:49,380
observations elsewhere but in fact most

2925
02:23:53,750 --> 02:23:51,899
of what the field of astrobiology has to

2926
02:23:55,429 --> 02:23:53,760
study is here on Earth because after all

2927
02:23:56,929 --> 02:23:55,439
it's our one example of an inhabited

2928
02:24:00,170 --> 02:23:56,939
planet and it's a little bit easier to

2929
02:24:02,690 --> 02:24:00,180
get to to make observations so yes uh

2930
02:24:05,570 --> 02:24:02,700
any any insights do you have uh in that

2931
02:24:06,710 --> 02:24:05,580
area or any any suggestions for uh for

2932
02:24:08,270 --> 02:24:06,720
uh collaboration between those

2933
02:24:14,030 --> 02:24:08,280
communities uh would be would be very

2934
02:24:18,950 --> 02:24:17,270
so of course NASA has been researching

2935
02:24:20,630 --> 02:24:18,960
the Techno signature field for very long

2936
02:24:23,270 --> 02:24:20,640
and there's been a stigma with techno

2937
02:24:25,190 --> 02:24:23,280
signatures for many decades are there

2938
02:24:27,830 --> 02:24:25,200
any Lessons Learned

2939
02:24:30,349 --> 02:24:27,840
we can impose from the Techno signature

2940
02:24:33,530 --> 02:24:30,359
in the study Community to the UAP and

2941
02:24:34,910 --> 02:24:33,540
solar system studies

2942
02:24:36,410 --> 02:24:34,920
so really

2943
02:24:38,929 --> 02:24:36,420
good question

2944
02:24:41,270 --> 02:24:38,939
um I guess the immediate thought it

2945
02:24:43,610 --> 02:24:41,280
Sparks in me is that uh

2946
02:24:47,450 --> 02:24:43,620
yeah techno signatures

2947
02:24:49,550 --> 02:24:47,460
were kind of treated uh at kept at arm's

2948
02:24:50,889 --> 02:24:49,560
length for a long time by NASA because

2949
02:24:54,170 --> 02:24:50,899
of stigma

2950
02:24:56,090 --> 02:24:54,180
and ultimately uh

2951
02:24:58,550 --> 02:24:56,100
can't be kept

2952
02:25:00,650 --> 02:24:58,560
away forever if you're if you are an

2953
02:25:02,030 --> 02:25:00,660
agency curiosity driven trying to

2954
02:25:03,889 --> 02:25:02,040
understand the whole universe you have

2955
02:25:05,690 --> 02:25:03,899
to move Beyond stigmas and just try to

2956
02:25:07,790 --> 02:25:05,700
honestly look at whatever evidence there

2957
02:25:12,889 --> 02:25:07,800
is and so I think in that broad sense

2958
02:25:17,690 --> 02:25:15,530
um so someone who has been working in

2959
02:25:21,349 --> 02:25:17,700
astrobiology and data Sciences for some

2960
02:25:23,990 --> 02:25:21,359
time now it strikes me when both Dr

2961
02:25:25,330 --> 02:25:24,000
Bianco and you talked that the

2962
02:25:27,590 --> 02:25:25,340
differences that seem to me between

2963
02:25:31,429 --> 02:25:27,600
biosignatures and techno signatures

2964
02:25:33,110 --> 02:25:31,439
fields and UAP field again relies on the

2965
02:25:36,050 --> 02:25:33,120
data so biosignatures and techno

2966
02:25:38,330 --> 02:25:36,060
signatures they have are very well

2967
02:25:40,809 --> 02:25:38,340
standardized data sets they have collect

2968
02:25:43,370 --> 02:25:40,819
been collecting data sets for some time

2969
02:25:45,170 --> 02:25:43,380
and they are able to apply machine

2970
02:25:47,570 --> 02:25:45,180
learning artificial intelligence

2971
02:25:50,809 --> 02:25:47,580
algorithms while it's a totally

2972
02:25:52,969 --> 02:25:50,819
different question with uaps in how we

2973
02:25:56,090 --> 02:25:52,979
can apply artificial intelligence here

2974
02:26:00,250 --> 02:25:56,100
so again just like Dr Bianca how she

2975
02:26:05,330 --> 02:26:00,260
said it's about data standardization so

2976
02:26:07,070 --> 02:26:05,340
I hope that the UAP field will learn how

2977
02:26:08,870 --> 02:26:07,080
to work with the data from the

2978
02:26:09,830 --> 02:26:08,880
biosignatures and techno signatures

2979
02:26:11,630 --> 02:26:09,840
fields

2980
02:26:13,309 --> 02:26:11,640
yeah that's a good point the one the one

2981
02:26:15,590 --> 02:26:13,319
uh point I pushed back on a little bit

2982
02:26:18,349 --> 02:26:15,600
is whether techno signatures has been

2983
02:26:20,990 --> 02:26:18,359
has a lot of data in that sense the the

2984
02:26:23,510 --> 02:26:21,000
one part of techno signatures which is

2985
02:26:24,889 --> 02:26:23,520
looking for signals from radio and

2986
02:26:26,870 --> 02:26:24,899
Optical and that sort of thing that's

2987
02:26:28,250 --> 02:26:26,880
been you know associated with seti for a

2988
02:26:29,630 --> 02:26:28,260
long time you're right there's a lot of

2989
02:26:32,150 --> 02:26:29,640
data there that we've been collecting

2990
02:26:35,330 --> 02:26:32,160
but the term techno signature is this

2991
02:26:36,590 --> 02:26:35,340
sort of newly being adopted in it uh in

2992
02:26:38,990 --> 02:26:36,600
a way it reminds me of the distinction

2993
02:26:40,730 --> 02:26:39,000
we heard from the FAA about a

2994
02:26:43,429 --> 02:26:40,740
cooperative and you know non-cooperative

2995
02:26:44,270 --> 02:26:43,439
uh that with Techna signatures we're

2996
02:26:46,550 --> 02:26:44,280
looking

2997
02:26:47,870 --> 02:26:46,560
um there's more of an emphasis on

2998
02:26:49,370 --> 02:26:47,880
finding

2999
02:26:51,830 --> 02:26:49,380
um technology that is not necessarily

3000
02:26:54,170 --> 02:26:51,840
intended to Signal us but just sort of

3001
02:26:55,910 --> 02:26:54,180
uh doing what technology does and

3002
02:26:57,889 --> 02:26:55,920
finding ways to you know so it's not

3003
02:26:59,809 --> 02:26:57,899
looking for signals as much and in that

3004
02:27:01,910 --> 02:26:59,819
domain we have not necessarily been

3005
02:27:03,770 --> 02:27:01,920
collecting information for that long but

3006
02:27:05,630 --> 02:27:03,780
but your point is well taken that there

3007
02:27:07,730 --> 02:27:05,640
are lessons learned from uh certainly

3008
02:27:09,530 --> 02:27:07,740
the astrobiology and the the sort of

3009
02:27:11,690 --> 02:27:09,540
classical seti field where we've had a

3010
02:27:14,210 --> 02:27:11,700
lot of data and we could look at how

3011
02:27:16,910 --> 02:27:14,220
that is analyzed and try to collect the

3012
02:27:19,849 --> 02:27:16,920
data for uaps that will be amenable to

3013
02:27:31,849 --> 02:27:19,859
that same sort of analysis

3014
02:27:36,230 --> 02:27:34,550
hello everybody I'm Carlin toner a mon

3015
02:27:38,210 --> 02:27:36,240
aerospace engineer

3016
02:27:40,010 --> 02:27:38,220
you know it really struck me when Dr

3017
02:27:42,770 --> 02:27:40,020
Drake opened up this afternoon and

3018
02:27:44,990 --> 02:27:42,780
talked about this really small needle in

3019
02:27:47,870 --> 02:27:45,000
a really big Haystack that we're looking

3020
02:27:50,389 --> 02:27:47,880
for and I'm going to talk to you about

3021
02:27:52,969 --> 02:27:50,399
reporting a theme that we've heard a lot

3022
02:27:55,130 --> 02:27:52,979
how can we make that Haystack smaller

3023
02:27:57,950 --> 02:27:55,140
and that needle bigger

3024
02:28:00,410 --> 02:27:57,960
so reporting of uip events has received

3025
02:28:02,450 --> 02:28:00,420
a lot of attention recently but I think

3026
02:28:04,309 --> 02:28:02,460
that there are still barriers for people

3027
02:28:06,469 --> 02:28:04,319
to report

3028
02:28:09,469 --> 02:28:06,479
how or where should they report

3029
02:28:12,290 --> 02:28:09,479
will someone take action on their report

3030
02:28:14,450 --> 02:28:12,300
will the reporter be believed or will

3031
02:28:16,910 --> 02:28:14,460
they be shamed

3032
02:28:19,610 --> 02:28:16,920
we've heard over the course of our

3033
02:28:22,849 --> 02:28:19,620
fact-finding that many scientists and

3034
02:28:25,429 --> 02:28:22,859
aviators consider the study of uaps to

3035
02:28:27,530 --> 02:28:25,439
be Fringe at best

3036
02:28:29,750 --> 02:28:27,540
so this suggests there's a significant

3037
02:28:32,330 --> 02:28:29,760
negative stigma associated with

3038
02:28:34,150 --> 02:28:32,340
reporting or even researching such

3039
02:28:37,150 --> 02:28:34,160
phenomena

3040
02:28:39,830 --> 02:28:37,160
that said by encouraging military

3041
02:28:41,990 --> 02:28:39,840
aviators to disclose anomalies that

3042
02:28:44,090 --> 02:28:42,000
they've seen or detected the Department

3043
02:28:47,030 --> 02:28:44,100
of Defense is receiving many more

3044
02:28:49,309 --> 02:28:47,040
reports I think in the time that we've

3045
02:28:51,530 --> 02:28:49,319
been looking at this topic growing from

3046
02:28:53,450 --> 02:28:51,540
an odir report that was something like

3047
02:28:55,190 --> 02:28:53,460
500 to I think this morning we heard

3048
02:28:56,870 --> 02:28:55,200
something like 800 now so that's

3049
02:29:00,050 --> 02:28:56,880
accelerating

3050
02:29:02,389 --> 02:29:00,060
and a DOD will soon also mandate if not

3051
02:29:04,670 --> 02:29:02,399
already reporting by pilots which will

3052
02:29:07,790 --> 02:29:04,680
even grow that set

3053
02:29:10,190 --> 02:29:07,800
I would propose to this panel that NASA

3054
02:29:12,950 --> 02:29:10,200
can help make it safer for researchers

3055
02:29:16,070 --> 02:29:12,960
to explore data in the Civil airspace

3056
02:29:18,590 --> 02:29:16,080
domain it's simply by starting that work

3057
02:29:20,990 --> 02:29:18,600
internally

3058
02:29:22,849 --> 02:29:21,000
NASA could look at how civil anomaly

3059
02:29:26,090 --> 02:29:22,859
data is shared

3060
02:29:28,610 --> 02:29:26,100
study how to incentivize reporting

3061
02:29:30,230 --> 02:29:28,620
assess the possibility of crowdsourcing

3062
02:29:31,910 --> 02:29:30,240
data which I think we've heard a bit

3063
02:29:33,650 --> 02:29:31,920
about this afternoon

3064
02:29:37,730 --> 02:29:33,660
we're sponsor and participate in

3065
02:29:41,030 --> 02:29:37,740
conferences on UAP detection

3066
02:29:44,210 --> 02:29:41,040
our team has really only seen I'd say a

3067
02:29:46,610 --> 02:29:44,220
few unclassified images of UAP

3068
02:29:49,790 --> 02:29:46,620
which lack the contextual data that's

3069
02:29:51,889 --> 02:29:49,800
needed to understand their true nature

3070
02:29:54,110 --> 02:29:51,899
and I believe we've heard a single

3071
02:29:56,510 --> 02:29:54,120
firsthand account from a former military

3072
02:29:59,330 --> 02:29:56,520
Aviator

3073
02:30:01,969 --> 02:29:59,340
so one of my colleagues Josh has an

3074
02:30:05,870 --> 02:30:01,979
example to show just why it would be

3075
02:30:10,969 --> 02:30:05,880
important for NASA to also help shape

3076
02:30:13,610 --> 02:30:10,979
how the data and information is reported

3077
02:30:15,349 --> 02:30:13,620
before I turn the mic over to Josh I

3078
02:30:17,510 --> 02:30:15,359
want to make a recommendation to my

3079
02:30:21,050 --> 02:30:17,520
fellow panelists that we consider

3080
02:30:23,929 --> 02:30:21,060
advising NASA to more fully assess the

3081
02:30:25,730 --> 02:30:23,939
cultural and social barriers to studying

3082
02:30:28,670 --> 02:30:25,740
and Reporting UAP

3083
02:30:30,950 --> 02:30:28,680
and for NASA to implement a plan to

3084
02:30:37,910 --> 02:30:30,960
leverage its brand image to start

3085
02:30:37,920 --> 02:30:42,230
and then we'll we'll take discussions

3086
02:30:56,570 --> 02:30:44,210
so you can call them slide deck if you

3087
02:31:02,090 --> 02:30:58,610
so it's not it's not the charge of our

3088
02:31:03,889 --> 02:31:02,100
panel to evaluate UAP evidence but part

3089
02:31:06,830 --> 02:31:03,899
of our statement of task is to assess

3090
02:31:08,330 --> 02:31:06,840
the scientific analysis techniques that

3091
02:31:10,730 --> 02:31:08,340
are available you don't have to start it

3092
02:31:12,830 --> 02:31:10,740
just yet and the um

3093
02:31:15,830 --> 02:31:12,840
and how we might use them to determine

3094
02:31:18,410 --> 02:31:15,840
physical constraints on UAP

3095
02:31:20,750 --> 02:31:18,420
uh you know the UAP reports with the

3096
02:31:23,150 --> 02:31:20,760
most detailed contextual information are

3097
02:31:26,210 --> 02:31:23,160
the ones from the Navy aviators uh and

3098
02:31:28,490 --> 02:31:26,220
they're using a combination of um of

3099
02:31:30,590 --> 02:31:28,500
ranging and uh infrared Imaging

3100
02:31:32,389 --> 02:31:30,600
information and for these cases we can

3101
02:31:35,510 --> 02:31:32,399
directly calculate critical parameters

3102
02:31:38,750 --> 02:31:35,520
of a UAP such as altitude and velocity

3103
02:31:40,010 --> 02:31:38,760
under certain assumptions and it's you

3104
02:31:42,349 --> 02:31:40,020
know the main point I want to make here

3105
02:31:44,990 --> 02:31:42,359
is that this multi-sensor approach is

3106
02:31:47,630 --> 02:31:45,000
absolutely critical to um charting a

3107
02:31:49,790 --> 02:31:47,640
path forward for UAP investigations and

3108
02:31:51,770 --> 02:31:49,800
that pertains to NASA as well so I'm

3109
02:31:53,750 --> 02:31:51,780
going to provide one example here just

3110
02:31:56,469 --> 02:31:53,760
to illustrate the crucial role of

3111
02:31:58,070 --> 02:31:56,479
Science and scientific analysis

3112
02:32:00,530 --> 02:31:58,080
and

3113
02:32:03,170 --> 02:32:00,540
the role of scientific analysis to avoid

3114
02:32:06,050 --> 02:32:03,180
misinterpretation in some sense next

3115
02:32:06,060 --> 02:32:10,910
hit space

3116
02:32:15,050 --> 02:32:13,429
yeah okay so this is um

3117
02:32:16,849 --> 02:32:15,060
this video was recorded by

3118
02:32:19,969 --> 02:32:16,859
um Pilots deployed from the aircraft

3119
02:32:22,130 --> 02:32:19,979
carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt in 2015.

3120
02:32:24,650 --> 02:32:22,140
the example has been given the nickname

3121
02:32:26,389 --> 02:32:24,660
go fast because it gives an impression

3122
02:32:28,910 --> 02:32:26,399
of an object moving very rapidly against

3123
02:32:30,410 --> 02:32:28,920
the ocean surface and uh you know the

3124
02:32:32,389 --> 02:32:30,420
question is is this impression correct

3125
02:32:34,610 --> 02:32:32,399
and you know if not what can we say

3126
02:32:37,190 --> 02:32:34,620
quantitatively about what that object is

3127
02:32:40,130 --> 02:32:37,200
doing in uh kind of earth-centered

3128
02:32:41,690 --> 02:32:40,140
coordinate system

3129
02:32:43,670 --> 02:32:41,700
um fortunately the information needed to

3130
02:32:45,230 --> 02:32:43,680
determine the altitude and velocity of

3131
02:32:47,510 --> 02:32:45,240
this object is contained on the display

3132
02:32:49,190 --> 02:32:47,520
so go ahead and

3133
02:32:51,170 --> 02:32:49,200
next

3134
02:32:53,750 --> 02:32:51,180
and uh

3135
02:32:55,070 --> 02:32:53,760
this includes the elevation angle of the

3136
02:32:59,270 --> 02:32:55,080
camera

3137
02:33:02,270 --> 02:32:59,280
the target range in nautical miles

3138
02:33:04,990 --> 02:33:02,280
aircraft altitude the time reference in

3139
02:33:07,370 --> 02:33:05,000
seconds indicated air speed and Knots

3140
02:33:08,990 --> 02:33:07,380
you know this information in this video

3141
02:33:12,170 --> 02:33:09,000
in particular has been discussed quite a

3142
02:33:15,770 --> 02:33:12,180
bit on the on the web

3143
02:33:19,670 --> 02:33:15,780
so let's begin with the object altitude

3144
02:33:24,110 --> 02:33:21,830
so knowing the Jet's altitude and the

3145
02:33:26,690 --> 02:33:24,120
bearing to the Target we can apply basic

3146
02:33:28,929 --> 02:33:26,700
trigonometry to figure out where that

3147
02:33:31,610 --> 02:33:28,939
object is in altitude space and it's

3148
02:33:34,910 --> 02:33:31,620
turns out to be you know provided the

3149
02:33:36,530 --> 02:33:34,920
range information is accurate which can

3150
02:33:38,929 --> 02:33:36,540
have some uncertainties associated with

3151
02:33:43,010 --> 02:33:38,939
it but the object appears to be at about

3152
02:33:44,690 --> 02:33:43,020
13 000 feet an important aspect of this

3153
02:33:48,230 --> 02:33:44,700
here is that it's sort of midway between

3154
02:33:50,030 --> 02:33:48,240
the uh the jet and the ocean so it's the

3155
02:33:53,809 --> 02:33:50,040
ocean that looks like it's right behind

3156
02:33:56,630 --> 02:33:53,819
it is actually 4.2 miles away and this

3157
02:33:58,490 --> 02:33:56,640
is our first indication that some or

3158
02:34:01,790 --> 02:33:58,500
most of the motion that we observe the

3159
02:34:04,130 --> 02:34:01,800
apparent motion of the object is in fact

3160
02:34:06,590 --> 02:34:04,140
due to the rapid motion of the sensing

3161
02:34:08,809 --> 02:34:06,600
platform which is about 430 miles per

3162
02:34:12,349 --> 02:34:08,819
hour in this case

3163
02:34:14,150 --> 02:34:12,359
uh but we don't have to guess about this

3164
02:34:17,210 --> 02:34:14,160
so we have enough information on this

3165
02:34:20,929 --> 02:34:17,220
display to actually reconstruct

3166
02:34:22,309 --> 02:34:20,939
um the encounter go to the next slide

3167
02:34:24,469 --> 02:34:22,319
please

3168
02:34:26,150 --> 02:34:24,479
and uh so this is what this is this is

3169
02:34:30,170 --> 02:34:26,160
using additional information on the

3170
02:34:32,450 --> 02:34:30,180
screen including the time axis and um so

3171
02:34:34,190 --> 02:34:32,460
we know that this aircraft is banking

3172
02:34:36,889 --> 02:34:34,200
about 15 degrees left and you can

3173
02:34:38,990 --> 02:34:36,899
compute through a simple calculator the

3174
02:34:41,870 --> 02:34:39,000
radius approximate radius of curvature

3175
02:34:43,670 --> 02:34:41,880
of the flight and you the bottom line is

3176
02:34:45,349 --> 02:34:43,680
I won't go into detail here but if you

3177
02:34:47,150 --> 02:34:45,359
can get the bearing and range to the

3178
02:34:48,889 --> 02:34:47,160
Target at two locations with known

3179
02:34:50,809 --> 02:34:48,899
separation in time you can figure out

3180
02:34:54,290 --> 02:34:50,819
how far it moved in this case this

3181
02:34:57,170 --> 02:34:54,300
object moved about 390 meters

3182
02:35:00,590 --> 02:34:57,180
um in 22 seconds and that corresponds to

3183
02:35:02,330 --> 02:35:00,600
a velocity of just 40 miles per hour

3184
02:35:05,030 --> 02:35:02,340
and so that's a velocity is consistent

3185
02:35:07,070 --> 02:35:05,040
with wind speeds at 13 000 feet

3186
02:35:09,590 --> 02:35:07,080
so it's not our task to conjecture what

3187
02:35:11,630 --> 02:35:09,600
this object is but it's an example that

3188
02:35:13,250 --> 02:35:11,640
illustrates the type of data needed to

3189
02:35:15,590 --> 02:35:13,260
determine critical parameters that will

3190
02:35:16,929 --> 02:35:15,600
help us identify such objects going

3191
02:35:18,889 --> 02:35:16,939
forward

3192
02:35:20,750 --> 02:35:18,899
in addition to the importance of

3193
02:35:22,309 --> 02:35:20,760
quantitative analysis this example also

3194
02:35:24,170 --> 02:35:22,319
serves to illustrate the kind of

3195
02:35:27,530 --> 02:35:24,180
cognitive bias we have to contend with

3196
02:35:30,950 --> 02:35:27,540
for uaps recorded from unfamiliar

3197
02:35:32,809 --> 02:35:30,960
perspectives and uh Sean Kirkpatrick

3198
02:35:36,710 --> 02:35:32,819
showed another example of that this is

3199
02:35:38,389 --> 02:35:36,720
um this is a parallax effect case

3200
02:35:40,969 --> 02:35:38,399
foreign

3201
02:35:42,590 --> 02:35:40,979
thank you

3202
02:35:44,090 --> 02:35:42,600
any questions thanks

3203
02:35:46,429 --> 02:35:44,100
um actually before we have questions

3204
02:35:48,590 --> 02:35:46,439
actually a good moment uh Sean and I

3205
02:35:51,230 --> 02:35:48,600
want to comment on his

3206
02:35:53,870 --> 02:35:51,240
one of the questions if we bring Sean up

3207
02:36:01,429 --> 02:35:53,880
and then take questions for everybody on

3208
02:36:05,210 --> 02:36:02,990
thanks that was that was actually very

3209
02:36:07,370 --> 02:36:05,220
helpful for everyone I'm sure

3210
02:36:09,110 --> 02:36:07,380
um just one piece of clarification on

3211
02:36:11,990 --> 02:36:09,120
the video that we showed the second one

3212
02:36:15,050 --> 02:36:12,000
that was the new and we released one had

3213
02:36:16,969 --> 02:36:15,060
the three uh aircraft in it the question

3214
02:36:18,950 --> 02:36:16,979
was asked about if it was a stabilized

3215
02:36:22,250 --> 02:36:18,960
background against which the Jitter was

3216
02:36:24,230 --> 02:36:22,260
showing I I am not 100 certain of that

3217
02:36:26,750 --> 02:36:24,240
answer it might just be a bunch of dust

3218
02:36:29,270 --> 02:36:26,760
on that sensor but let me go back and

3219
02:36:32,030 --> 02:36:29,280
get you a more Folsom answer it is

3220
02:36:34,250 --> 02:36:32,040
either stabilized background or it's

3221
02:36:36,590 --> 02:36:34,260
just garbage but in either event the

3222
02:36:39,530 --> 02:36:36,600
three aircraft are

3223
02:36:41,330 --> 02:36:39,540
um jittering because of the platform but

3224
02:36:42,889 --> 02:36:41,340
that's another example of exactly what

3225
02:36:45,469 --> 02:36:42,899
you're saying right it's the perception

3226
02:36:47,150 --> 02:36:45,479
of the of the operator who thinks it's

3227
02:36:50,510 --> 02:36:47,160
doing something else when it's actually

3228
02:36:52,969 --> 02:36:50,520
just your own camera

3229
02:36:55,130 --> 02:36:52,979
yeah if I could just Sean in your event

3230
02:36:57,050 --> 02:36:55,140
it seemed to me that what you mean by

3231
02:36:58,849 --> 02:36:57,060
Jitter in this case is the the plane is

3232
02:37:01,490 --> 02:36:58,859
actually making motions that are causing

3233
02:37:04,429 --> 02:37:01,500
a parallax so it's actually more than

3234
02:37:05,990 --> 02:37:04,439
that uh so the plane will move and

3235
02:37:07,130 --> 02:37:06,000
that'll cause The Parallax that you just

3236
02:37:10,550 --> 02:37:07,140
showed

3237
02:37:12,530 --> 02:37:10,560
but the sensor itself the a lot of these

3238
02:37:14,210 --> 02:37:12,540
cameras are in gimbals

3239
02:37:16,010 --> 02:37:14,220
for those of you not certain what a

3240
02:37:18,170 --> 02:37:16,020
gimbal is it's the thing that your your

3241
02:37:20,690 --> 02:37:18,180
cameras sit on your telescopes sit on it

3242
02:37:25,070 --> 02:37:20,700
moves it around in different directions

3243
02:37:26,570 --> 02:37:25,080
uh those can sometimes be stabilized in

3244
02:37:29,750 --> 02:37:26,580
which case they

3245
02:37:30,830 --> 02:37:29,760
they uh damp out the motion of the

3246
02:37:33,170 --> 02:37:30,840
platform

3247
02:37:34,730 --> 02:37:33,180
and in other cases they're not and they

3248
02:37:37,070 --> 02:37:34,740
they jump around and so what you're

3249
02:37:40,070 --> 02:37:37,080
actually seeing in that video is what we

3250
02:37:42,590 --> 02:37:40,080
call Jitter of the sensor against the

3251
02:37:44,210 --> 02:37:42,600
platform so the platform's moving and

3252
02:37:47,690 --> 02:37:44,220
the sensor is moving it's not as

3253
02:37:50,030 --> 02:37:47,700
stabilized against the target but the

3254
02:37:52,370 --> 02:37:50,040
once it's collected sometimes in

3255
02:37:54,170 --> 02:37:52,380
processing the background is stabilized

3256
02:37:59,030 --> 02:37:54,180
frame to frame just like some of those

3257
02:38:02,809 --> 02:38:00,830
yeah I just wanted to jump in here I

3258
02:38:05,929 --> 02:38:02,819
think uh make a couple of comments to

3259
02:38:10,550 --> 02:38:05,939
just follow up on what uh Josh said in

3260
02:38:13,550 --> 02:38:10,560
my experience of flying you know over 15

3261
02:38:16,070 --> 02:38:13,560
000 hours 30 something years in

3262
02:38:19,370 --> 02:38:16,080
airplanes and and both in space

3263
02:38:22,130 --> 02:38:19,380
and the environment that we fly in space

3264
02:38:25,550 --> 02:38:22,140
or you know an atmospheric flight very

3265
02:38:28,610 --> 02:38:25,560
very conducive to optical illusions so I

3266
02:38:30,590 --> 02:38:28,620
get why these Pilots would look at that

3267
02:38:32,929 --> 02:38:30,600
go fast video and think it was going

3268
02:38:34,730 --> 02:38:32,939
really really fast

3269
02:38:36,770 --> 02:38:34,740
um I remember one time I was flying in

3270
02:38:39,590 --> 02:38:36,780
the warning areas off of Virginia Beach

3271
02:38:41,270 --> 02:38:39,600
Military operating area there and my Rio

3272
02:38:44,510 --> 02:38:41,280
thought the guy that sits in the back of

3273
02:38:45,830 --> 02:38:44,520
the Tomcat was convinced we flew by a

3274
02:38:48,530 --> 02:38:45,840
UFO

3275
02:38:51,530 --> 02:38:48,540
so I didn't see it we turned around we

3276
02:38:56,150 --> 02:38:51,540
went to go look at it it turns out it

3277
02:39:00,590 --> 02:38:58,790
you know oftentimes in space I would see

3278
02:39:03,590 --> 02:39:00,600
things and I was like oh that's really

3279
02:39:06,230 --> 02:39:03,600
not behaving like it should it's not it

3280
02:39:07,969 --> 02:39:06,240
doesn't have a trajectory of a satellite

3281
02:39:11,270 --> 02:39:07,979
or a planet on the back of the star

3282
02:39:13,550 --> 02:39:11,280
field and every single time when I would

3283
02:39:16,910 --> 02:39:13,560
look at it long enough I would realize

3284
02:39:18,830 --> 02:39:16,920
that it was atmospheric lensing it was

3285
02:39:20,690 --> 02:39:18,840
the fact that what what I was looking at

3286
02:39:22,730 --> 02:39:20,700
was actually flying behind the

3287
02:39:24,710 --> 02:39:22,740
atmosphere and because of variations in

3288
02:39:26,150 --> 02:39:24,720
the atmosphere it made the trajectory

3289
02:39:27,830 --> 02:39:26,160
look like it wasn't going in a straight

3290
02:39:29,510 --> 02:39:27,840
line it was going like this and they'd

3291
02:39:32,090 --> 02:39:29,520
go like that and it would turn in the

3292
02:39:33,050 --> 02:39:32,100
other direction always was always the

3293
02:39:37,550 --> 02:39:33,060
case

3294
02:39:41,090 --> 02:39:37,560
my brother uh Mark Kelly a former NASA

3295
02:39:44,270 --> 02:39:41,100
astronaut and uh also now a U.S senator

3296
02:39:45,710 --> 02:39:44,280
I was with him for dinner last night he

3297
02:39:47,990 --> 02:39:45,720
shared a story

3298
02:39:49,910 --> 02:39:48,000
with me again that he had shared years

3299
02:39:52,250 --> 02:39:49,920
ago but I had kind of forgotten about it

3300
02:39:55,150 --> 02:39:52,260
and I think it's worth sharing and that

3301
02:39:58,730 --> 02:39:55,160
that is when he was the commander of SDS

3302
02:40:00,170 --> 02:39:58,740
124 I think it was in 2008. they were

3303
02:40:02,090 --> 02:40:00,180
getting ready to close the payload bay

3304
02:40:05,090 --> 02:40:02,100
doors of the Space Shuttle

3305
02:40:07,250 --> 02:40:05,100
and before they do that you got to make

3306
02:40:08,570 --> 02:40:07,260
sure nothing interferes with the doors

3307
02:40:10,490 --> 02:40:08,580
because if the doors don't close

3308
02:40:12,110 --> 02:40:10,500
properly the space shuttle can't

3309
02:40:13,730 --> 02:40:12,120
re-enter the atmosphere it would come

3310
02:40:16,490 --> 02:40:13,740
apart it's part of the structural

3311
02:40:18,770 --> 02:40:16,500
Integrity of the vehicle so they see

3312
02:40:21,710 --> 02:40:18,780
something in the payload Bay and they

3313
02:40:23,870 --> 02:40:21,720
thought it was a tool maybe a bolt they

3314
02:40:25,670 --> 02:40:23,880
couldn't quite figure it out they were

3315
02:40:28,550 --> 02:40:25,680
potentially going to have to go and do a

3316
02:40:30,410 --> 02:40:28,560
spacewalk to retrieve it

3317
02:40:32,090 --> 02:40:30,420
but before they did that my brother

3318
02:40:34,250 --> 02:40:32,100
grabbed the camera they took a picture

3319
02:40:38,809 --> 02:40:34,260
of it and when they blew up the picture

3320
02:40:41,150 --> 02:40:38,819
they realized that this is not a bolt or

3321
02:40:42,950 --> 02:40:41,160
a tool in the payload Bay it was

3322
02:40:45,290 --> 02:40:42,960
actually the International Space Station

3323
02:40:48,050 --> 02:40:45,300
that was 80 miles away

3324
02:40:51,469 --> 02:40:48,060
I mean that's just a really good example

3325
02:40:53,630 --> 02:40:51,479
of how this environment we operate in is

3326
02:40:55,849 --> 02:40:53,640
so so conducive topic optical illusions

3327
02:40:57,830 --> 02:40:55,859
oftentimes guys fly into the water and

3328
02:41:00,110 --> 02:40:57,840
there are cases where you know Pilots

3329
02:41:02,330 --> 02:41:00,120
have rendezvoused on a buoy because they

3330
02:41:04,309 --> 02:41:02,340
thought that was their wingman it's just

3331
02:41:05,870 --> 02:41:04,319
very very

3332
02:41:08,210 --> 02:41:05,880
um challenging environment to work and

3333
02:41:10,670 --> 02:41:08,220
especially at night and

3334
02:41:13,309 --> 02:41:10,680
in my experience the sensors kind of

3335
02:41:19,610 --> 02:41:13,319
have the same issues as the you know the

3336
02:41:23,270 --> 02:41:21,950
so per what Scott just said I think we

3337
02:41:25,610 --> 02:41:23,280
need to take it as an action to

3338
02:41:29,510 --> 02:41:25,620
investigate unidentified animated

3339
02:41:32,210 --> 02:41:29,520
phenomena to go after Bart Simpson I I

3340
02:41:35,090 --> 02:41:32,220
think what Josh and Scott said is very

3341
02:41:37,429 --> 02:41:35,100
very helpful and shows why we need

3342
02:41:39,590 --> 02:41:37,439
multiple sources of data

3343
02:41:42,110 --> 02:41:39,600
were their radar hits were there other

3344
02:41:44,389 --> 02:41:42,120
sightings unless we can look at this

3345
02:41:47,929 --> 02:41:44,399
from a holistic perspective it's very

3346
02:41:49,730 --> 02:41:47,939
difficult to draw conclusions and

3347
02:41:52,190 --> 02:41:49,740
relative to stigma I appreciate the

3348
02:41:53,570 --> 02:41:52,200
reports that our colleagues gave I think

3349
02:41:55,130 --> 02:41:53,580
there's plenty of stigma right here in

3350
02:41:58,550 --> 02:41:55,140
this building and I'm sure Dan you

3351
02:42:00,469 --> 02:41:58,560
suffered from it at times and I just

3352
02:42:02,990 --> 02:42:00,479
want to commend administrator although

3353
02:42:05,090 --> 02:42:03,000
who's always be Senator Nelson to me for

3354
02:42:08,030 --> 02:42:05,100
his leadership and candidly courage and

3355
02:42:11,030 --> 02:42:08,040
getting an asset to tackle this issue

3356
02:42:12,889 --> 02:42:11,040
and as we look at what Sean had

3357
02:42:15,770 --> 02:42:12,899
articulated that what he wants NASA to

3358
02:42:17,690 --> 02:42:15,780
do as we look at the recommendations for

3359
02:42:20,510 --> 02:42:17,700
reporting and how we need to collate

3360
02:42:22,429 --> 02:42:20,520
that reporting I'm very concerned that

3361
02:42:26,330 --> 02:42:22,439
this could be effectively done on an ad

3362
02:42:30,469 --> 02:42:26,340
hoc basis and I've been a part of far

3363
02:42:33,230 --> 02:42:30,479
too many panels and studies that end up

3364
02:42:35,870 --> 02:42:33,240
sitting on the shelf I don't want this

3365
02:42:37,849 --> 02:42:35,880
to be one of those exercises and we can

3366
02:42:40,790 --> 02:42:37,859
discuss this further but I would call

3367
02:42:43,790 --> 02:42:40,800
for and recommend a permanent office

3368
02:42:46,370 --> 02:42:43,800
within NASA to support this activity

3369
02:42:47,990 --> 02:42:46,380
albeit likely a modest one but to

3370
02:42:51,170 --> 02:42:48,000
collate this information collate that

3371
02:42:54,230 --> 02:42:51,180
data to Archive the information and act

3372
02:42:57,710 --> 02:42:54,240
as the open forward-facing counterpart

3373
02:42:59,389 --> 02:42:57,720
to Sean and aaro I think then we could

3374
02:43:01,910 --> 02:42:59,399
continue and actually accomplish the

3375
02:43:04,010 --> 02:43:01,920
reporting the stigma issues that have

3376
02:43:07,670 --> 02:43:04,020
been raised and we could do so in a

3377
02:43:09,650 --> 02:43:07,680
relatively affordable fashion because

3378
02:43:14,210 --> 02:43:09,660
again I don't want all of our work to

3379
02:43:18,349 --> 02:43:15,590
so now

3380
02:43:20,210 --> 02:43:18,359
Jen's going to turn to our charge

3381
02:43:26,870 --> 02:43:20,220
and

3382
02:43:29,330 --> 02:43:26,880
convened with a set of questions that we

3383
02:43:31,730 --> 02:43:29,340
were charged to address we've been

3384
02:43:33,650 --> 02:43:31,740
addressing them through the topics we've

3385
02:43:35,750 --> 02:43:33,660
talked about and through things as we've

3386
02:43:37,790 --> 02:43:35,760
been thinking this through but we're

3387
02:43:40,010 --> 02:43:37,800
going to organize the next part of the

3388
02:43:42,410 --> 02:43:40,020
discussion with Jen presenting these

3389
02:43:44,510 --> 02:43:42,420
things and this is also a chance to get

3390
02:43:47,389 --> 02:43:44,520
into some of the discussion phase

3391
02:43:50,630 --> 02:43:47,399
because we can look at each of these

3392
02:43:52,910 --> 02:43:50,640
questions as the topics that we make we

3393
02:43:55,309 --> 02:43:52,920
want to make sure we address as part of

3394
02:43:57,770 --> 02:43:55,319
the report Jen

3395
02:44:01,010 --> 02:43:57,780
thanks David and I want to thank the

3396
02:44:02,510 --> 02:44:01,020
panelists all for all of your work all

3397
02:44:05,570 --> 02:44:02,520
of the knowledge that I've gained from

3398
02:44:08,690 --> 02:44:05,580
from each of you through this time I

3399
02:44:11,270 --> 02:44:08,700
took it upon myself in preparing for

3400
02:44:14,389 --> 02:44:11,280
today's meeting to draft a statement

3401
02:44:18,830 --> 02:44:14,399
that answers the eight questions that we

3402
02:44:22,070 --> 02:44:18,840
were provided at the beginning of the

3403
02:44:23,690 --> 02:44:22,080
uh last summer when the panel was was

3404
02:44:26,090 --> 02:44:23,700
created so I'm going to read the

3405
02:44:28,910 --> 02:44:26,100
question out loud I'm going to read my

3406
02:44:30,530 --> 02:44:28,920
statement and I'm going to pause let you

3407
02:44:32,510 --> 02:44:30,540
think and reflect and if there's

3408
02:44:34,010 --> 02:44:32,520
remember this isn't all of the details

3409
02:44:36,349 --> 02:44:34,020
associated with each of these answers

3410
02:44:38,030 --> 02:44:36,359
right this is to be a kind of high level

3411
02:44:39,230 --> 02:44:38,040
make sure we've got the major points

3412
02:44:42,590 --> 02:44:39,240
there

3413
02:44:44,510 --> 02:44:42,600
um and and this is an initial take for

3414
02:44:47,750 --> 02:44:44,520
for these answers

3415
02:44:50,510 --> 02:44:47,760
so the first question goes what types of

3416
02:44:53,630 --> 02:44:50,520
scientific data currently collected and

3417
02:44:55,910 --> 02:44:53,640
archived by NASA or other civilian

3418
02:44:59,809 --> 02:44:55,920
government entities should be

3419
02:45:02,330 --> 02:44:59,819
synthesized and analyzed prior to

3420
02:45:04,250 --> 02:45:02,340
potentially shed light on the nature and

3421
02:45:07,490 --> 02:45:04,260
origins of UAP

3422
02:45:11,150 --> 02:45:07,500
so the panel reviewed data sources

3423
02:45:15,170 --> 02:45:11,160
analytic tools data architectures from

3424
02:45:15,710 --> 02:45:15,180
NASA NOAA FAA Commerce and others

3425
02:45:19,969 --> 02:45:15,720
um

3426
02:45:22,309 --> 02:45:19,979
the data that we recognize were not

3427
02:45:23,389 --> 02:45:22,319
collected for the purpose of identifying

3428
02:45:25,550 --> 02:45:23,399
UAP

3429
02:45:28,250 --> 02:45:25,560
which leaves bias in the data that was

3430
02:45:30,469 --> 02:45:28,260
collected even though there is an

3431
02:45:33,349 --> 02:45:30,479
immense amount of data available it is

3432
02:45:36,070 --> 02:45:33,359
hard to access and the sensors that were

3433
02:45:42,650 --> 02:45:36,080
used were not well calibrated for

3434
02:45:47,650 --> 02:45:45,110
no questions moving forward question

3435
02:45:50,990 --> 02:45:47,660
number two I kind of feel like Jeopardy

3436
02:45:53,090 --> 02:45:51,000
what what types of scientific data

3437
02:45:56,150 --> 02:45:53,100
currently collected and held by

3438
02:45:58,190 --> 02:45:56,160
non-profits and companies should be

3439
02:46:00,290 --> 02:45:58,200
synthesized and analyzed to potentially

3440
02:46:02,450 --> 02:46:00,300
shed light on the nature and origins of

3441
02:46:05,389 --> 02:46:02,460
UAP

3442
02:46:07,969 --> 02:46:05,399
many organizations exist to track

3443
02:46:09,830 --> 02:46:07,979
sightings of anomalous phenomena in the

3444
02:46:13,490 --> 02:46:09,840
Earth's atmosphere

3445
02:46:15,410 --> 02:46:13,500
both non-profit for-profit and otherwise

3446
02:46:16,969 --> 02:46:15,420
the study panel concluded that much of

3447
02:46:18,650 --> 02:46:16,979
the inputs collected by these

3448
02:46:22,130 --> 02:46:18,660
organizations are not considered

3449
02:46:24,469 --> 02:46:22,140
scientific data in nature and that they

3450
02:46:27,410 --> 02:46:24,479
do not contain unbiased information

3451
02:46:30,530 --> 02:46:27,420
they're not repeatable and they

3452
02:46:33,170 --> 02:46:30,540
typically come with eyewitness accounts

3453
02:46:34,910 --> 02:46:33,180
which we've heard even today that

3454
02:46:37,309 --> 02:46:34,920
there's uh

3455
02:46:42,710 --> 02:46:37,319
hesitations with using only eyewitness

3456
02:46:47,510 --> 02:46:45,650
um to the point about commercial or

3457
02:46:50,809 --> 02:46:47,520
companies there are a lot of space

3458
02:46:54,050 --> 02:46:50,819
companies that some lobbied hard to get

3459
02:46:55,969 --> 02:46:54,060
in to present to us they have trolls of

3460
02:46:57,770 --> 02:46:55,979
data but they're collected for a variety

3461
02:47:00,290 --> 02:46:57,780
of different purposes than the purpose

3462
02:47:02,570 --> 02:47:00,300
of UAP and those systems while they are

3463
02:47:05,809 --> 02:47:02,580
well calibrated are only one source of

3464
02:47:06,469 --> 02:47:05,819
many that could be used

3465
02:47:09,889 --> 02:47:06,479
um

3466
02:47:12,170 --> 02:47:09,899
questions comments concerns yes Carlin

3467
02:47:12,889 --> 02:47:12,180
I'll bite on that one Jen

3468
02:47:16,730 --> 02:47:12,899
um

3469
02:47:19,490 --> 02:47:16,740
you know I I think your answer is

3470
02:47:21,830 --> 02:47:19,500
correct as to what we've seen but where

3471
02:47:23,870 --> 02:47:21,840
I would go is if we made a

3472
02:47:25,969 --> 02:47:23,880
recommendation to NASA that you know

3473
02:47:29,630 --> 02:47:25,979
we're really asking them to build a

3474
02:47:32,270 --> 02:47:29,640
roadmap and we haven't done a robust

3475
02:47:34,309 --> 02:47:32,280
catalog and we've looked at sources

3476
02:47:37,130 --> 02:47:34,319
mentioned sources that we think might be

3477
02:47:39,290 --> 02:47:37,140
relevant but perhaps a more robust

3478
02:47:41,030 --> 02:47:39,300
effort cataloging would be a good modest

3479
02:47:44,750 --> 02:47:41,040
start yeah

3480
02:47:46,250 --> 02:47:44,760
that's good I I will only in slight

3481
02:47:48,230 --> 02:47:46,260
defense of trying to answer the exact

3482
02:47:50,030 --> 02:47:48,240
question as opposed to the panel rather

3483
02:47:52,309 --> 02:47:50,040
than trying to add recommendations at

3484
02:47:54,770 --> 02:47:52,319
this point but yes Point well taken

3485
02:47:56,750 --> 02:47:54,780
thank you yeah I mean I think one of the

3486
02:47:59,090 --> 02:47:56,760
data sets so we just learned about you

3487
02:48:00,650 --> 02:47:59,100
know heard more about today and thinking

3488
02:48:04,309 --> 02:48:00,660
about sort of calibrating things is the

3489
02:48:06,110 --> 02:48:04,319
FAA data on a normal you know tracking

3490
02:48:09,650 --> 02:48:06,120
events right and I think this is

3491
02:48:12,290 --> 02:48:09,660
something where if we had you know

3492
02:48:14,690 --> 02:48:12,300
some imaging software people you know

3493
02:48:17,870 --> 02:48:14,700
sell citizen scientists with cell phone

3494
02:48:20,630 --> 02:48:17,880
cameras Identify some event that looks

3495
02:48:24,290 --> 02:48:20,640
interesting one of the places you'd like

3496
02:48:26,090 --> 02:48:24,300
to be able to turn is the FAA data and

3497
02:48:28,130 --> 02:48:26,100
having

3498
02:48:30,490 --> 02:48:28,140
um you know if there is to go back to

3499
02:48:33,590 --> 02:48:30,500
you know having a NASA

3500
02:48:34,670 --> 02:48:33,600
responsibility for data NASA makes you

3501
02:48:37,490 --> 02:48:34,680
know

3502
02:48:38,690 --> 02:48:37,500
has a lot of experience in serving as a

3503
02:48:41,690 --> 02:48:38,700
Clearing House

3504
02:48:43,550 --> 02:48:41,700
for data from across the government for

3505
02:48:45,830 --> 02:48:43,560
civilian data right this is something we

3506
02:48:47,630 --> 02:48:45,840
do in lots of different areas and I I

3507
02:48:49,790 --> 02:48:47,640
think there are some opportunities with

3508
02:48:51,770 --> 02:48:49,800
data sets there and I think the the

3509
02:48:54,050 --> 02:48:51,780
radar data is one that comes to mind is

3510
02:48:57,110 --> 02:48:54,060
one we don't want to forget about as an

3511
02:48:59,570 --> 02:48:57,120
available data center yeah absolutely

3512
02:49:02,090 --> 02:48:59,580
um question three I think goes more

3513
02:49:04,250 --> 02:49:02,100
towards the recommendations of what

3514
02:49:07,849 --> 02:49:04,260
other types of scientific data should be

3515
02:49:09,230 --> 02:49:07,859
collected by NASA to enhance the

3516
02:49:11,210 --> 02:49:09,240
potential for developing an

3517
02:49:13,730 --> 02:49:11,220
understanding of the nature and origins

3518
02:49:14,929 --> 02:49:13,740
of UAP so we've heard now from two of

3519
02:49:18,230 --> 02:49:14,939
the panelists on some of the information

3520
02:49:19,849 --> 02:49:18,240
that should be collected or the way that

3521
02:49:21,650 --> 02:49:19,859
some of that data should be organized in

3522
02:49:25,130 --> 02:49:21,660
a manner to make it available for people

3523
02:49:28,070 --> 02:49:25,140
to analyze that information

3524
02:49:28,990 --> 02:49:28,080
um and the only other thoughts that I

3525
02:49:33,170 --> 02:49:29,000
had

3526
02:49:35,330 --> 02:49:33,180
here was was really recognizing the

3527
02:49:38,690 --> 02:49:35,340
difference in

3528
02:49:41,389 --> 02:49:38,700
um the sensor thresholds right so we

3529
02:49:43,490 --> 02:49:41,399
can't always tune a sensor all the way

3530
02:49:45,050 --> 02:49:43,500
to the resolution that we might need or

3531
02:49:47,389 --> 02:49:45,060
we might want

3532
02:49:49,130 --> 02:49:47,399
um and and as we collect that data to

3533
02:49:50,210 --> 02:49:49,140
recognize for the scientists that are

3534
02:49:52,670 --> 02:49:50,220
doing

3535
02:49:54,410 --> 02:49:52,680
um those analyzes the bounds of each of

3536
02:49:57,170 --> 02:49:54,420
the systems that they're that they're

3537
02:50:02,330 --> 02:49:59,450
yeah

3538
02:50:05,090 --> 02:50:02,340
what strikes me on that one when you

3539
02:50:06,770 --> 02:50:05,100
were reading the the answer the proposed

3540
02:50:07,370 --> 02:50:06,780
answer was

3541
02:50:11,450 --> 02:50:07,380
um

3542
02:50:14,809 --> 02:50:11,460
what may be new maybe something that's

3543
02:50:17,809 --> 02:50:14,819
new to NASA in the sense of like a Time

3544
02:50:20,330 --> 02:50:17,819
series so we can know what's normal so

3545
02:50:23,570 --> 02:50:20,340
we can perhaps identify what's not

3546
02:50:25,610 --> 02:50:23,580
normal or anomalous right so I'm not

3547
02:50:28,309 --> 02:50:25,620
sure to what extent

3548
02:50:29,929 --> 02:50:28,319
um it's like the most unsexy thing to

3549
02:50:31,849 --> 02:50:29,939
sell on the face of the planet right is

3550
02:50:34,250 --> 02:50:31,859
making consistent long-term observations

3551
02:50:36,530 --> 02:50:34,260
but I think that the agency may be set

3552
02:50:39,230 --> 02:50:36,540
up to do just that for multiple reasons

3553
02:50:41,570 --> 02:50:39,240
right yeah persistent yeah data

3554
02:50:42,590 --> 02:50:41,580
collection the agency does that in a lot

3555
02:50:44,990 --> 02:50:42,600
of cases for us through physical

3556
02:50:46,910 --> 02:50:45,000
purposes so the infrastructure of course

3557
02:50:47,809 --> 02:50:46,920
you know pointing up and pointing at a

3558
02:50:50,150 --> 02:50:47,819
different distance but the

3559
02:50:52,370 --> 02:50:50,160
infrastructure for collecting this kind

3560
02:50:55,790 --> 02:50:52,380
of data organizing and keeping it and

3561
02:50:57,410 --> 02:50:55,800
that does exist yeah and there are

3562
02:50:59,570 --> 02:50:57,420
in their defense a lot of satellite

3563
02:51:05,030 --> 02:50:59,580
companies that are doing that persistent

3564
02:51:10,969 --> 02:51:07,969
question for which scientific analysis

3565
02:51:12,830 --> 02:51:10,979
techniques currently in production could

3566
02:51:16,130 --> 02:51:12,840
be employed to assess the nature and

3567
02:51:18,110 --> 02:51:16,140
origins of UAP which types of analysis

3568
02:51:22,010 --> 02:51:18,120
techniques should be developed so this

3569
02:51:24,830 --> 02:51:22,020
is a two-part with what exists today and

3570
02:51:26,230 --> 02:51:24,840
what should be so we're looking also at

3571
02:51:29,150 --> 02:51:26,240
recommendations

3572
02:51:31,550 --> 02:51:29,160
based on the information provided by the

3573
02:51:33,349 --> 02:51:31,560
presenters to the panel there are very

3574
02:51:35,290 --> 02:51:33,359
few credible analysis technique

3575
02:51:37,630 --> 02:51:35,300
techniques available

3576
02:51:41,330 --> 02:51:37,640
that currently exist

3577
02:51:43,550 --> 02:51:41,340
to assess the nature and origins of UAP

3578
02:51:45,410 --> 02:51:43,560
the onset of artificial intelligence and

3579
02:51:48,530 --> 02:51:45,420
automated analysis techniques give

3580
02:51:50,570 --> 02:51:48,540
promise to being able to do that in the

3581
02:51:52,429 --> 02:51:50,580
future

3582
02:51:54,349 --> 02:51:52,439
um I wanted to add something to that

3583
02:51:56,870 --> 02:51:54,359
perhaps which is that really to design

3584
02:51:59,150 --> 02:51:56,880
the analysis you need to know what the

3585
02:52:00,950 --> 02:51:59,160
data looks like right so

3586
02:52:03,830 --> 02:52:00,960
um you know we can't really say what

3587
02:52:05,090 --> 02:52:03,840
kind of analysis should be uh created on

3588
02:52:07,250 --> 02:52:05,100
the hypothetical data that we're

3589
02:52:09,830 --> 02:52:07,260
recommending should be collected in a in

3590
02:52:12,110 --> 02:52:09,840
a in some you know somewhat specified

3591
02:52:14,450 --> 02:52:12,120
fashion if it's all hypothetical and we

3592
02:52:16,429 --> 02:52:14,460
want to collect all of this data and we

3593
02:52:18,170 --> 02:52:16,439
know what format it's going to be in we

3594
02:52:20,150 --> 02:52:18,180
can design analysis techniques around it

3595
02:52:22,190 --> 02:52:20,160
and at that point it's likely that there

3596
02:52:24,290 --> 02:52:22,200
are analysis techniques that are that

3597
02:52:26,990 --> 02:52:24,300
already exist absolutely lots of anomaly

3598
02:52:28,969 --> 02:52:27,000
detection work we just don't know which

3599
02:52:31,010 --> 02:52:28,979
one will be more suitable because the

3600
02:52:32,269 --> 02:52:31,020
data as it should be it doesn't exist

3601
02:52:33,769 --> 02:52:32,279
yet correct

3602
02:52:35,330 --> 02:52:33,779
you said exactly what I was going to say

3603
02:52:36,889 --> 02:52:35,340
yeah and that that's what I was getting

3604
02:52:38,750 --> 02:52:36,899
at with my point not that those analysis

3605
02:52:40,490 --> 02:52:38,760
techniques don't exist in the scientific

3606
02:52:41,929 --> 02:52:40,500
Community just that they're not being

3607
02:52:44,150 --> 02:52:41,939
applied to this problem set right now

3608
02:52:47,750 --> 02:52:44,160
and it's hard to apply them when we

3609
02:52:50,570 --> 02:52:47,760
don't have the the known data of what

3610
02:52:52,130 --> 02:52:50,580
would go into those David yeah I I think

3611
02:52:54,650 --> 02:52:52,140
something we want to stress here is the

3612
02:52:56,750 --> 02:52:54,660
importance of uniform data yes and the

3613
02:52:59,210 --> 02:52:56,760
way it's collected because particularly

3614
02:53:01,490 --> 02:52:59,220
when you're looking for outliers if you

3615
02:53:03,889 --> 02:53:01,500
have data coming from many different

3616
02:53:06,530 --> 02:53:03,899
observing techniques right and just

3617
02:53:08,750 --> 02:53:06,540
having a uniform set of cameras a

3618
02:53:10,849 --> 02:53:08,760
uniform set of detectors so you

3619
02:53:12,710 --> 02:53:10,859
understand and characterize them right

3620
02:53:15,889 --> 02:53:12,720
because this is a a needle in the

3621
02:53:18,769 --> 02:53:15,899
haystack problem and you know every

3622
02:53:22,250 --> 02:53:18,779
camera I mean I'd mentioned in the uh

3623
02:53:24,290 --> 02:53:22,260
opening session ghosting in Optics yes

3624
02:53:25,670 --> 02:53:24,300
now that's going to be different in

3625
02:53:27,530 --> 02:53:25,680
every different detector everything

3626
02:53:29,750 --> 02:53:27,540
right and you

3627
02:53:31,250 --> 02:53:29,760
um before we get to the analysis

3628
02:53:34,429 --> 02:53:31,260
techniques we want to make sure we

3629
02:53:36,349 --> 02:53:34,439
design the data collection so that the

3630
02:53:38,630 --> 02:53:36,359
analysis techniques can effectively be

3631
02:53:42,830 --> 02:53:38,640
used on it right David can I take a

3632
02:53:47,630 --> 02:53:44,510
it sounds like you're implying that you

3633
02:53:49,190 --> 02:53:47,640
need a single way of collecting the data

3634
02:53:51,050 --> 02:53:49,200
I'd argue it's really you need to

3635
02:53:52,429 --> 02:53:51,060
understand the various ways in which

3636
02:53:55,190 --> 02:53:52,439
you're collecting the data and you're

3637
02:53:56,570 --> 02:53:55,200
able to cross calibrate across those

3638
02:53:58,550 --> 02:53:56,580
different approaches

3639
02:54:01,610 --> 02:53:58,560
uh because I seriously doubt that there

3640
02:54:04,429 --> 02:54:01,620
is a single detector

3641
02:54:06,950 --> 02:54:04,439
I I think a handful of ways though that

3642
02:54:08,809 --> 02:54:06,960
you're yeah I'm well characterized

3643
02:54:11,210 --> 02:54:08,819
things things need to be well

3644
02:54:13,969 --> 02:54:11,220
characterized to be useful I guess is

3645
02:54:16,309 --> 02:54:13,979
the way I would state it and uh it takes

3646
02:54:18,110 --> 02:54:16,319
time and energy to well characterize

3647
02:54:19,540 --> 02:54:18,120
things so that that's that's I think the

3648
02:54:22,250 --> 02:54:19,550
challenge

3649
02:54:23,990 --> 02:54:22,260
[Music]

3650
02:54:25,849 --> 02:54:24,000
it's where we can actually apply

3651
02:54:27,769 --> 02:54:25,859
artificial intelligence so we cannot

3652
02:54:30,230 --> 02:54:27,779
apply Artificial Intelligence on the

3653
02:54:33,250 --> 02:54:30,240
current data but we can apply artificial

3654
02:54:35,630 --> 02:54:33,260
intelligence in a way that we can design

3655
02:54:37,969 --> 02:54:35,640
characteristics for the data that we

3656
02:54:40,630 --> 02:54:37,979
need and how we can collect the data

3657
02:54:42,769 --> 02:54:40,640
that we need so

3658
02:54:44,269 --> 02:54:42,779
this is probably more of a frustration

3659
02:54:46,910 --> 02:54:44,279
than anything else so I don't know how

3660
02:54:48,950 --> 02:54:46,920
helpful it'll be but I think we're not

3661
02:54:51,110 --> 02:54:48,960
looking for a needle in Haystack we're

3662
02:54:52,190 --> 02:54:51,120
looking for anomaly in Haystack we don't

3663
02:54:55,429 --> 02:54:52,200
even know that we're looking for a

3664
02:54:56,290 --> 02:54:55,439
needle that it's just a discolored piece

3665
02:54:58,550 --> 02:54:56,300
of hay

3666
02:55:00,290 --> 02:54:58,560
I'm from Montana so I love good hay

3667
02:55:02,570 --> 02:55:00,300
analogy

3668
02:55:03,889 --> 02:55:02,580
I don't know what the phenomenology is

3669
02:55:06,410 --> 02:55:03,899
that we're looking for

3670
02:55:08,150 --> 02:55:06,420
we say Anonymous again in this question

3671
02:55:10,190 --> 02:55:08,160
earlier what does that mean anomalous

3672
02:55:12,410 --> 02:55:10,200
acceleration like I think as we try to

3673
02:55:14,809 --> 02:55:12,420
look at the data we're starting from an

3674
02:55:16,730 --> 02:55:14,819
almost impossible position when if we

3675
02:55:18,910 --> 02:55:16,740
don't know what we're looking for is it

3676
02:55:20,870 --> 02:55:18,920
a radiation signature is it something

3677
02:55:23,450 --> 02:55:20,880
electromagnetic is it something like

3678
02:55:25,490 --> 02:55:23,460
that is why this is so challenging and

3679
02:55:27,650 --> 02:55:25,500
frustrating to me that we're talking

3680
02:55:29,210 --> 02:55:27,660
about monitoring something that we don't

3681
02:55:32,090 --> 02:55:29,220
even know what we're supposed to Monitor

3682
02:55:34,990 --> 02:55:32,100
and let me just offer Josh before you

3683
02:55:37,389 --> 02:55:35,000
jump in the the scientific process of

3684
02:55:41,809 --> 02:55:37,399
hypothesis-driven research

3685
02:55:44,150 --> 02:55:41,819
of that while we don't know all of the

3686
02:55:47,030 --> 02:55:44,160
possible outcomes in the entire world we

3687
02:55:50,809 --> 02:55:47,040
can ask very specific questions and go

3688
02:55:53,510 --> 02:55:50,819
about it in a very scientific process to

3689
02:55:55,610 --> 02:55:53,520
understand so you're right we don't know

3690
02:55:58,429 --> 02:55:55,620
exactly what we're looking for but we

3691
02:56:02,630 --> 02:55:58,439
know hot spots as we've seen from both

3692
02:56:04,370 --> 02:56:02,640
FAA and arrow we do know some of those

3693
02:56:06,650 --> 02:56:04,380
conditions that we might be looking for

3694
02:56:09,410 --> 02:56:06,660
so if you start with with kind of what

3695
02:56:11,630 --> 02:56:09,420
you know or places to start to go and

3696
02:56:14,030 --> 02:56:11,640
look and you start with the data that we

3697
02:56:17,030 --> 02:56:14,040
have available to us

3698
02:56:19,190 --> 02:56:17,040
we might start being able to untangle

3699
02:56:21,050 --> 02:56:19,200
the chicken and egg problem

3700
02:56:23,990 --> 02:56:21,060
Ken what is the phenomena that we're

3701
02:56:29,210 --> 02:56:26,469
so we've heard them from Sean

3702
02:56:30,769 --> 02:56:29,220
I would pull up Sean's chart but I can't

3703
02:56:32,630 --> 02:56:30,779
quickly do that

3704
02:56:34,790 --> 02:56:32,640
um of the criteria that he said on the

3705
02:56:38,269 --> 02:56:34,800
trends I use word criteria he said

3706
02:56:40,070 --> 02:56:38,279
trends of six or seven

3707
02:56:44,929 --> 02:56:40,080
um

3708
02:56:48,230 --> 02:56:44,939
uh phenomena I guess of specific size or

3709
02:56:49,429 --> 02:56:48,240
within a specific motion range and it's

3710
02:56:51,170 --> 02:56:49,439
something

3711
02:56:53,750 --> 02:56:51,180
different than what we've seen before

3712
02:56:55,250 --> 02:56:53,760
something we don't recognize

3713
02:56:57,230 --> 02:56:55,260
and so when you go to look for something

3714
02:57:00,710 --> 02:56:57,240
that you don't recognize

3715
02:57:02,809 --> 02:57:00,720
it it can be pretty easy and that we've

3716
02:57:04,809 --> 02:57:02,819
fooled ourselves today and even watching

3717
02:57:07,190 --> 02:57:04,819
some of these videos of what's going on

3718
02:57:09,950 --> 02:57:07,200
but when you're able to corroborate that

3719
02:57:11,750 --> 02:57:09,960
with three or four other sources it

3720
02:57:13,550 --> 02:57:11,760
starts to make sense

3721
02:57:16,190 --> 02:57:13,560
right so something that looks like magic

3722
02:57:17,950 --> 02:57:16,200
to the naked eye or to that camera in

3723
02:57:20,990 --> 02:57:17,960
that sensor

3724
02:57:22,849 --> 02:57:21,000
isn't once you understand all of the

3725
02:57:24,650 --> 02:57:22,859
effects of what was going on in the

3726
02:57:26,870 --> 02:57:24,660
surrounding environment

3727
02:57:28,070 --> 02:57:26,880
it's a good question can we um because I

3728
02:57:31,490 --> 02:57:28,080
got the same frustration you do right

3729
02:57:33,290 --> 02:57:31,500
it's it's regardless of um what you're

3730
02:57:34,790 --> 02:57:33,300
looking for if you don't know what it is

3731
02:57:36,830 --> 02:57:34,800
whether you're using AI or match

3732
02:57:38,330 --> 02:57:36,840
filtering techniques you can't find it

3733
02:57:40,130 --> 02:57:38,340
right you can't find it so because the

3734
02:57:42,170 --> 02:57:40,140
question I have is can we use social

3735
02:57:43,429 --> 02:57:42,180
media that kind of thing as a way of

3736
02:57:44,450 --> 02:57:43,439
cueing

3737
02:57:45,889 --> 02:57:44,460
um to know where something's happening

3738
02:57:47,690 --> 02:57:45,899
because we know Google searches can lead

3739
02:57:49,490 --> 02:57:47,700
you to better understand where outbreaks

3740
02:57:50,929 --> 02:57:49,500
happen right disease outbreaks can you

3741
02:57:52,250 --> 02:57:50,939
use similar type of conflation of data

3742
02:57:54,410 --> 02:57:52,260
to start saying well something's going

3743
02:57:55,550 --> 02:57:54,420
on here let's start cueing sensors in

3744
02:57:57,830 --> 02:57:55,560
that area and that requires some

3745
02:58:00,950 --> 02:57:57,840
real-time capability but is that

3746
02:58:03,889 --> 02:58:00,960
something we can think about

3747
02:58:05,630 --> 02:58:03,899
can I object to that just a bit uh you

3748
02:58:08,870 --> 02:58:05,640
can find things that you don't know how

3749
02:58:10,849 --> 02:58:08,880
they look okay there there is a lot of

3750
02:58:12,830 --> 02:58:10,859
the algorithms in anomaly detection are

3751
02:58:15,889 --> 02:58:12,840
really based on let's know let's find

3752
02:58:18,050 --> 02:58:15,899
out how what we know looks like so that

3753
02:58:20,030 --> 02:58:18,060
anything that doesn't look like that can

3754
02:58:21,290 --> 02:58:20,040
be identified and spotted and then we

3755
02:58:23,690 --> 02:58:21,300
can think whether or not we understand

3756
02:58:26,990 --> 02:58:23,700
you right and so I think the point about

3757
02:58:29,630 --> 02:58:27,000
the homogeneous detectors really is

3758
02:58:31,969 --> 02:58:29,640
about that we need to have a solid

3759
02:58:34,490 --> 02:58:31,979
understanding of the normal abnormal was

3760
02:58:37,490 --> 02:58:34,500
really Our Lives as we sometimes perhaps

3761
02:58:40,550 --> 02:58:37,500
more often call them in in science right

3762
02:58:41,809 --> 02:58:40,560
yeah absolutely I do want to be cautious

3763
02:58:43,790 --> 02:58:41,819
of time

3764
02:58:46,370 --> 02:58:43,800
we were supposed to end this about 10

3765
02:58:47,750 --> 02:58:46,380
minutes ago right so but this is drifted

3766
02:58:50,330 --> 02:58:47,760
into discussion but I think we're doing

3767
02:58:51,590 --> 02:58:50,340
discussion so do you have any last topic

3768
02:58:53,090 --> 02:58:51,600
you want to hit if not then we'll just

3769
02:58:54,290 --> 02:58:53,100
open up to General discussion I have

3770
02:58:56,330 --> 02:58:54,300
four more questions that we're

3771
02:58:59,110 --> 02:58:56,340
technically supposed to answer all right

3772
02:59:01,730 --> 02:58:59,120
let's do one

3773
02:59:05,450 --> 02:59:01,740
we can do four questions in two minutes

3774
02:59:07,429 --> 02:59:05,460
right okay speed round

3775
02:59:10,010 --> 02:59:07,439
considering all of this

3776
02:59:11,809 --> 02:59:10,020
what basic physical constraints can be

3777
02:59:13,250 --> 02:59:11,819
placed on the nature and origins of UAP

3778
02:59:15,190 --> 02:59:13,260
Mike would you like to take this

3779
02:59:18,230 --> 02:59:15,200
question

3780
02:59:22,610 --> 02:59:18,240
okay got it

3781
02:59:24,830 --> 02:59:22,620
um I uh in my my notes to answer this

3782
02:59:27,469 --> 02:59:24,840
knew that Sean had presented some Trends

3783
02:59:28,670 --> 02:59:27,479
so I I used that kind of as the basis

3784
02:59:30,530 --> 02:59:28,680
for

3785
02:59:31,969 --> 02:59:30,540
um what basic physical constraints could

3786
02:59:34,490 --> 02:59:31,979
be available

3787
02:59:36,530 --> 02:59:34,500
um and also the Josh's presentation that

3788
02:59:38,570 --> 02:59:36,540
he just presented of we know some of

3789
02:59:40,550 --> 02:59:38,580
these are still in the realm of

3790
02:59:42,230 --> 02:59:40,560
understanding we just haven't applied

3791
02:59:43,969 --> 02:59:42,240
basic physics to understand what's there

3792
02:59:47,269 --> 02:59:43,979
what we have

3793
02:59:49,910 --> 02:59:47,279
uh question six what civilian airspace

3794
02:59:52,969 --> 02:59:49,920
data related to uaps have been collected

3795
02:59:56,630 --> 02:59:52,979
by government agencies and are available

3796
02:59:58,309 --> 02:59:56,640
for analysis to a inform efforts to

3797
03:00:02,269 --> 02:59:58,319
better understand the nature and origins

3798
03:00:04,910 --> 03:00:02,279
of uaps and B determine the risk of uaps

3799
03:00:05,630 --> 03:00:04,920
to the National airspace

3800
03:00:08,210 --> 03:00:05,640
um

3801
03:00:12,170 --> 03:00:08,220
so

3802
03:00:13,429 --> 03:00:12,180
examples from today to kind of move

3803
03:00:14,750 --> 03:00:13,439
quickly

3804
03:00:18,290 --> 03:00:14,760
um some of this in Mike freeze

3805
03:00:20,630 --> 03:00:18,300
presentation and talking about the error

3806
03:00:22,130 --> 03:00:20,640
risks right that FAA is always looking

3807
03:00:22,969 --> 03:00:22,140
out for

3808
03:00:24,950 --> 03:00:22,979
um

3809
03:00:28,070 --> 03:00:24,960
we know

3810
03:00:29,809 --> 03:00:28,080
um by altitude and by sensor and

3811
03:00:32,389 --> 03:00:29,819
curvature of the earth and line of sight

3812
03:00:34,490 --> 03:00:32,399
and as you get higher that you can see

3813
03:00:36,710 --> 03:00:34,500
more right so we have a lot of Civilian

3814
03:00:37,929 --> 03:00:36,720
airspace data that can start to

3815
03:00:41,510 --> 03:00:37,939
understand

3816
03:00:43,330 --> 03:00:41,520
the nature and origins of the UAP and

3817
03:00:46,730 --> 03:00:43,340
determining the risk

3818
03:00:49,010 --> 03:00:46,740
is based on how much you know right so

3819
03:00:50,570 --> 03:00:49,020
you think about I I go straight to the

3820
03:00:53,750 --> 03:00:50,580
space and I think about satellites and

3821
03:00:55,849 --> 03:00:53,760
one's um tiny piece of space debris you

3822
03:00:57,650 --> 03:00:55,859
can destroy an entire satellite because

3823
03:01:00,710 --> 03:00:57,660
they're moving really really fast in in

3824
03:01:04,849 --> 03:01:00,720
the vacuum of space it's not necessarily

3825
03:01:07,849 --> 03:01:04,859
so true in airspace right but something

3826
03:01:10,969 --> 03:01:07,859
that we don't know could have a severe

3827
03:01:15,070 --> 03:01:10,979
impact on pilots and their flight plan

3828
03:01:18,769 --> 03:01:15,080
and all of that which then could really

3829
03:01:20,750 --> 03:01:18,779
wreak havoc on all of all of the United

3830
03:01:22,490 --> 03:01:20,760
States airspace and so being able to

3831
03:01:24,110 --> 03:01:22,500
understand and identify what those are

3832
03:01:27,349 --> 03:01:24,120
phenomena are

3833
03:01:29,210 --> 03:01:27,359
um will help de-risk the the air flight

3834
03:01:31,130 --> 03:01:29,220
safety

3835
03:01:34,969 --> 03:01:31,140
the in the National airspace

3836
03:01:36,469 --> 03:01:34,979
um question seven what current reporting

3837
03:01:39,170 --> 03:01:36,479
protocols and air traffic management

3838
03:01:41,630 --> 03:01:39,180
data acquisition systems can be modified

3839
03:01:44,750 --> 03:01:41,640
to acquire additional data on past and

3840
03:01:46,370 --> 03:01:44,760
future uaps we've heard a lot of the

3841
03:01:49,309 --> 03:01:46,380
reporting structures it was talked about

3842
03:01:51,889 --> 03:01:49,319
earlier today those probably can be

3843
03:01:53,809 --> 03:01:51,899
adapted and improved and it's up to us

3844
03:01:56,809 --> 03:01:53,819
in discussion as the panel on what those

3845
03:01:59,389 --> 03:01:56,819
recommendations might be question eight

3846
03:02:01,910 --> 03:01:59,399
and I'll get off stage what potential

3847
03:02:04,490 --> 03:02:01,920
enhancements to the Future air traffic

3848
03:02:07,370 --> 03:02:04,500
management development efforts can be

3849
03:02:10,130 --> 03:02:07,380
recommended to acquire data concerning

3850
03:02:11,809 --> 03:02:10,140
future reported uaps to assist in the

3851
03:02:14,750 --> 03:02:11,819
effort to better understand the nature

3852
03:02:15,469 --> 03:02:14,760
and origins of the uaps

3853
03:02:18,469 --> 03:02:15,479
um

3854
03:02:20,630 --> 03:02:18,479
the potential enhancements

3855
03:02:23,330 --> 03:02:20,640
automatic filtering of the knowns has

3856
03:02:24,050 --> 03:02:23,340
come up as a talking point

3857
03:02:25,809 --> 03:02:24,060
um

3858
03:02:31,130 --> 03:02:25,819
these are

3859
03:02:31,969 --> 03:02:31,140
uh specific really to acquiring data

3860
03:02:35,050 --> 03:02:31,979
um

3861
03:02:39,290 --> 03:02:35,060
the tuning of those sensor platforms

3862
03:02:41,750 --> 03:02:39,300
the multimodal Spectrum collection and

3863
03:02:44,769 --> 03:02:41,760
being able to kind of time stamp or

3864
03:02:48,170 --> 03:02:44,779
geostamp each of those to collaborate

3865
03:02:50,269 --> 03:02:48,180
the the sightings so I will leave the

3866
03:02:52,250 --> 03:02:50,279
panel with that with time to continue

3867
03:02:56,150 --> 03:02:52,260
discussion

3868
03:02:56,160 --> 03:03:08,570
okay great let me go up to let me uh

3869
03:03:13,849 --> 03:03:11,110
but before I open it up I just wanted to

3870
03:03:15,769 --> 03:03:13,859
restate federica's answer to Mike for

3871
03:03:18,469 --> 03:03:15,779
hey

3872
03:03:19,370 --> 03:03:18,479
if you know the properties of hay very

3873
03:03:21,469 --> 03:03:19,380
well

3874
03:03:23,269 --> 03:03:21,479
and you can you go through your Haystack

3875
03:03:25,969 --> 03:03:23,279
and say

3876
03:03:27,950 --> 03:03:25,979
I don't know what this is but it doesn't

3877
03:03:29,870 --> 03:03:27,960
look like hey

3878
03:03:32,090 --> 03:03:29,880
you don't need to have a match filter

3879
03:03:40,309 --> 03:03:32,100
looking for a needle in a haystack if

3880
03:03:47,030 --> 03:03:44,450
now as a New York City resident

3881
03:03:48,469 --> 03:03:47,040
impression as we go through hay with

3882
03:03:50,929 --> 03:03:48,479
your you don't want to do it with your

3883
03:03:57,050 --> 03:03:53,570
but I I defer to you

3884
03:04:05,389 --> 03:04:02,030
I think I am yeah so um I want to

3885
03:04:07,250 --> 03:04:05,399
in the final minutes we have here before

3886
03:04:09,410 --> 03:04:07,260
the public session

3887
03:04:11,809 --> 03:04:09,420
look to the Future

3888
03:04:13,550 --> 03:04:11,819
I think a lot of us have looked at the

3889
03:04:15,290 --> 03:04:13,560
data we have now with a sense of

3890
03:04:19,250 --> 03:04:15,300
dissatisfaction

3891
03:04:21,530 --> 03:04:19,260
and say what data would you want and how

3892
03:04:23,570 --> 03:04:21,540
would you want to collect it

3893
03:04:26,570 --> 03:04:23,580
um and just think about you know we

3894
03:04:29,210 --> 03:04:26,580
don't need to design the detectors but

3895
03:04:31,849 --> 03:04:29,220
think about the characterization that we

3896
03:04:33,710 --> 03:04:31,859
we'd like what wavelengths we'd like and

3897
03:04:37,309 --> 03:04:33,720
you know just to kind of throw that out

3898
03:04:41,809 --> 03:04:37,319
as a one way to think about uh

3899
03:04:48,769 --> 03:04:45,889
pull so one thing that strikes me in

3900
03:04:51,349 --> 03:04:48,779
that question is that I'm not totally

3901
03:04:53,769 --> 03:04:51,359
certain that we've dedicated our time

3902
03:04:56,690 --> 03:04:53,779
and effort to looking for

3903
03:04:58,490 --> 03:04:56,700
anomalies I think by default there are

3904
03:05:02,269 --> 03:04:58,500
some science communities

3905
03:05:04,130 --> 03:05:02,279
that look for things like um uh the

3906
03:05:06,170 --> 03:05:04,140
Genesis of a hurricane or a harmful

3907
03:05:08,929 --> 03:05:06,180
algal bloom in the ocean or you know

3908
03:05:10,730 --> 03:05:08,939
something in interstellar space but I'm

3909
03:05:13,250 --> 03:05:10,740
not sure we ever focused our

3910
03:05:14,870 --> 03:05:13,260
interdisciplinary effort on that and I

3911
03:05:17,030 --> 03:05:14,880
think the question you ask is a really

3912
03:05:19,429 --> 03:05:17,040
interesting one part of our statement of

3913
03:05:21,650 --> 03:05:19,439
task right but I'm not sure I can answer

3914
03:05:25,969 --> 03:05:21,660
that quite yet that's how I feel about

3915
03:05:30,050 --> 03:05:27,410
Shelly Wright

3916
03:05:31,130 --> 03:05:30,060
um yeah going along with Dr buns Happy's

3917
03:05:32,990 --> 03:05:31,140
point there

3918
03:05:35,570 --> 03:05:33,000
we heard a lot from Arrow about

3919
03:05:38,090 --> 03:05:35,580
specifics about the needle one to four

3920
03:05:41,030 --> 03:05:38,100
meters in size zero to Mach two you can

3921
03:05:44,630 --> 03:05:41,040
then look at NASA's assets right

3922
03:05:47,030 --> 03:05:44,640
and look at its spatial resolution its

3923
03:05:48,590 --> 03:05:47,040
spectral resolution in particular the

3924
03:05:50,330 --> 03:05:48,600
frame rate to get I'm going to get your

3925
03:05:52,070 --> 03:05:50,340
question here

3926
03:05:54,590 --> 03:05:52,080
um Dr spurgle

3927
03:05:56,750 --> 03:05:54,600
you can look at the current NASA assets

3928
03:05:59,690 --> 03:05:56,760
and try to say which ones could find

3929
03:06:01,370 --> 03:05:59,700
that needle the ones that uh Dr

3930
03:06:03,950 --> 03:06:01,380
Kirkpatrick put forward

3931
03:06:06,710 --> 03:06:03,960
that analysis has not been done so one

3932
03:06:09,469 --> 03:06:06,720
of my recommendations would be for NASA

3933
03:06:11,929 --> 03:06:09,479
to convene a group and a task force to

3934
03:06:15,710 --> 03:06:11,939
look at its current assets to calculate

3935
03:06:18,290 --> 03:06:15,720
what current available data current data

3936
03:06:21,290 --> 03:06:18,300
and current facilities could answer

3937
03:06:23,690 --> 03:06:21,300
insight into that now to get to your

3938
03:06:27,650 --> 03:06:23,700
future question looking at this I see

3939
03:06:30,410 --> 03:06:27,660
Walter is um frame rate I see a really

3940
03:06:32,030 --> 03:06:30,420
big issue with frame rate so if you want

3941
03:06:34,309 --> 03:06:32,040
to catch spass moving in objects you

3942
03:06:36,530 --> 03:06:34,319
need to take quick images if you want to

3943
03:06:38,990 --> 03:06:36,540
get to these very small sizes and

3944
03:06:40,670 --> 03:06:39,000
resolution depending on altitude where

3945
03:06:42,370 --> 03:06:40,680
your actual you're taking your image

3946
03:06:45,110 --> 03:06:42,380
from ground or space

3947
03:06:47,870 --> 03:06:45,120
NASA will likely have to increase its

3948
03:06:50,809 --> 03:06:47,880
frame rate into its detectors

3949
03:06:52,849 --> 03:06:50,819
I think short answer to what NASA's

3950
03:06:54,950 --> 03:06:52,859
current assets would be able to see

3951
03:06:57,410 --> 03:06:54,960
would be really big Haystacks that are

3952
03:06:58,809 --> 03:06:57,420
moving very slowly which I think is the

3953
03:07:01,370 --> 03:06:58,819
point that you're making

3954
03:07:03,110 --> 03:07:01,380
but that doesn't mean that that data is

3955
03:07:05,269 --> 03:07:03,120
not useful because if it's able to

3956
03:07:06,410 --> 03:07:05,279
characterize the background extremely

3957
03:07:07,849 --> 03:07:06,420
well

3958
03:07:11,030 --> 03:07:07,859
that

3959
03:07:13,010 --> 03:07:11,040
gives you a better idea of what unusual

3960
03:07:14,690 --> 03:07:13,020
looks like basically anything that you

3961
03:07:17,870 --> 03:07:14,700
do that characterizes the background

3962
03:07:19,490 --> 03:07:17,880
will contribute to an understanding

3963
03:07:21,710 --> 03:07:19,500
so we're going to have to cut this off

3964
03:07:24,230 --> 03:07:21,720
now because we're now going to our our

3965
03:07:32,210 --> 03:07:24,240
public session public comment session so

3966
03:07:36,650 --> 03:07:33,769
hello everybody

3967
03:07:39,170 --> 03:07:36,660
uh I am Karen Fox with NASA's office of

3968
03:07:42,230 --> 03:07:39,180
communications and we are cycling into

3969
03:07:45,830 --> 03:07:42,240
the public q a portion of this meeting

3970
03:07:48,110 --> 03:07:45,840
uh as a reminder this is a facca meeting

3971
03:07:50,870 --> 03:07:48,120
that is a federal advisory committee act

3972
03:07:52,550 --> 03:07:50,880
and so we are under guidance which says

3973
03:07:56,690 --> 03:07:52,560
that these meetings are public and that

3974
03:07:59,030 --> 03:07:56,700
we take public uh questions uh we got

3975
03:08:00,410 --> 03:07:59,040
hundreds and hundreds of questions and I

3976
03:08:02,570 --> 03:08:00,420
just want to take a moment to say thank

3977
03:08:04,370 --> 03:08:02,580
you to everybody who who submitted them

3978
03:08:05,929 --> 03:08:04,380
uh we're obviously not going to get to

3979
03:08:07,429 --> 03:08:05,939
all of them today but we are going to

3980
03:08:10,389 --> 03:08:07,439
make attempts to answer some of them

3981
03:08:13,849 --> 03:08:10,399
online you can always check back to

3982
03:08:15,170 --> 03:08:13,859
science.nasa.gov UAP where over time we

3983
03:08:17,570 --> 03:08:15,180
will make it clear where we're putting

3984
03:08:18,830 --> 03:08:17,580
out some more of those answers in the

3985
03:08:23,750 --> 03:08:18,840
meantime we did have to make some

3986
03:08:26,030 --> 03:08:23,760
decisions uh we stuck two questions that

3987
03:08:27,910 --> 03:08:26,040
applied to this independent study and

3988
03:08:29,929 --> 03:08:27,920
uaps there were a lot of questions about

3989
03:08:32,030 --> 03:08:29,939
astrobiology and other subjects that

3990
03:08:33,769 --> 03:08:32,040
we're not going to get to today and also

3991
03:08:35,990 --> 03:08:33,779
in an attempt to get to as many of the

3992
03:08:38,090 --> 03:08:36,000
questions as possible since so many of

3993
03:08:40,250 --> 03:08:38,100
them were similar we've we've sort of

3994
03:08:41,990 --> 03:08:40,260
bucketed them and that is how we're

3995
03:08:43,190 --> 03:08:42,000
going to try to address as many as

3996
03:08:44,929 --> 03:08:43,200
possible so I'm going to toss the

3997
03:08:46,610 --> 03:08:44,939
questions to you and we'll and we'll

3998
03:08:48,290 --> 03:08:46,620
look to getting some answers for our for

3999
03:08:53,269 --> 03:08:48,300
our public questions

4000
03:08:56,150 --> 03:08:53,279
all right so first set of questions

4001
03:08:58,250 --> 03:08:56,160
um are specifically about the the data

4002
03:09:00,710 --> 03:08:58,260
being used so

4003
03:09:03,349 --> 03:09:00,720
examples what exactly are you

4004
03:09:05,630 --> 03:09:03,359
incorporating into your report what data

4005
03:09:08,090 --> 03:09:05,640
are we using what are some examples of

4006
03:09:10,250 --> 03:09:08,100
data being used do we have multi-sensor

4007
03:09:12,349 --> 03:09:10,260
data or of objects performing Maneuvers

4008
03:09:14,750 --> 03:09:12,359
that seem truly anomalous do we have

4009
03:09:16,190 --> 03:09:14,760
photos videos what about having the NASA

4010
03:09:18,110 --> 03:09:16,200
historian go through the NASA's

4011
03:09:20,690 --> 03:09:18,120
historical records did you interview

4012
03:09:22,309 --> 03:09:20,700
military or Pilots for this study so

4013
03:09:26,090 --> 03:09:22,319
looking for some information about the

4014
03:09:30,469 --> 03:09:28,010
I can toss to anyone David looks like

4015
03:09:32,030 --> 03:09:30,479
he's jumping in well I think first and

4016
03:09:33,410 --> 03:09:32,040
foremost our goal here is a way to

4017
03:09:35,150 --> 03:09:33,420
create a roadmap

4018
03:09:37,790 --> 03:09:35,160
right so really

4019
03:09:39,830 --> 03:09:37,800
um you know we have been informed by

4020
03:09:42,349 --> 03:09:39,840
some of the events that are reported and

4021
03:09:44,809 --> 03:09:42,359
we've had uh but we've certainly not

4022
03:09:46,969 --> 03:09:44,819
done a complete historical study on our

4023
03:09:49,849 --> 03:09:46,979
in an archive and I think one of the

4024
03:09:51,590 --> 03:09:49,859
things we've wanted to do was learn what

4025
03:09:54,170 --> 03:09:51,600
kinds of events have been reported learn

4026
03:09:56,330 --> 03:09:54,180
about some of the ones have been resolve

4027
03:09:58,849 --> 03:09:56,340
some of the ones that are unresolved so

4028
03:10:00,710 --> 03:09:58,859
we can best think about

4029
03:10:03,050 --> 03:10:00,720
how in the future

4030
03:10:04,790 --> 03:10:03,060
we can collect data so that we can get

4031
03:10:06,230 --> 03:10:04,800
more robust answers

4032
03:10:09,230 --> 03:10:06,240
so that

4033
03:10:11,269 --> 03:10:09,240
I hope that that addressed that question

4034
03:10:13,010 --> 03:10:11,279
it does although

4035
03:10:16,070 --> 03:10:13,020
others have anything else they'd like to

4036
03:10:20,450 --> 03:10:17,690
all right

4037
03:10:23,269 --> 03:10:20,460
then I will keep going

4038
03:10:25,670 --> 03:10:23,279
uh another big question category was

4039
03:10:28,190 --> 03:10:25,680
about transparency and about sharing

4040
03:10:31,309 --> 03:10:28,200
information and so examples in this

4041
03:10:33,110 --> 03:10:31,319
category are what is NASA hiding and

4042
03:10:35,510 --> 03:10:33,120
where are you hiding it

4043
03:10:38,690 --> 03:10:35,520
how much has been shared publicly has

4044
03:10:41,510 --> 03:10:38,700
NASA ever cut the live NASA TV feed away

4045
03:10:43,910 --> 03:10:41,520
from something has NASA released all UAP

4046
03:10:46,550 --> 03:10:43,920
evidence it has ever received what about

4047
03:10:48,170 --> 03:10:46,560
NASA astronauts do they have an NDA or

4048
03:10:50,950 --> 03:10:48,180
clearance that does not allow them to

4049
03:10:58,309 --> 03:10:50,960
speak about UAP sightings

4050
03:11:02,830 --> 03:11:00,710
Dan Evans all right I'll take a stab at

4051
03:11:05,330 --> 03:11:02,840
that spot that one I really want to

4052
03:11:07,309 --> 03:11:05,340
assure the public

4053
03:11:10,070 --> 03:11:07,319
and to double down on some remarks I

4054
03:11:12,889 --> 03:11:10,080
made this morning so this agency is

4055
03:11:17,210 --> 03:11:12,899
absolutely cast iron committed to

4056
03:11:19,910 --> 03:11:17,220
openness and transparency and honesty

4057
03:11:22,309 --> 03:11:19,920
and that commitment also extends to our

4058
03:11:24,469 --> 03:11:22,319
live NASA TV feeds they provide

4059
03:11:25,490 --> 03:11:24,479
real-time footage from our various

4060
03:11:28,370 --> 03:11:25,500
missions

4061
03:11:31,730 --> 03:11:28,380
now to my knowledge NASA has never

4062
03:11:34,429 --> 03:11:31,740
intentionally cut a live feed to hide

4063
03:11:35,349 --> 03:11:34,439
anything and that includes uaps of

4064
03:11:38,090 --> 03:11:35,359
course

4065
03:11:40,370 --> 03:11:38,100
sometimes there are interruptions to our

4066
03:11:42,349 --> 03:11:40,380
feeds but that is simply because space

4067
03:11:43,969 --> 03:11:42,359
is a complex place

4068
03:11:45,889 --> 03:11:43,979
there's a vast array of natural

4069
03:11:48,830 --> 03:11:45,899
phenomena human-made objects and so

4070
03:11:51,530 --> 03:11:48,840
forth but again I wanted to reassure the

4071
03:11:53,990 --> 03:11:51,540
public that we're absolutely committed

4072
03:11:56,450 --> 03:11:54,000
to providing the public transparency and

4073
03:11:59,090 --> 03:11:56,460
openness those are the Hallmarks of NASA

4074
03:12:02,150 --> 03:11:59,100
that's why we're here today in public on

4075
03:12:04,849 --> 03:12:02,160
TV because we want the public to have

4076
03:12:07,730 --> 03:12:04,859
the opportunity to see the process of

4077
03:12:10,010 --> 03:12:07,740
this committee doing its work in public

4078
03:12:12,349 --> 03:12:10,020
it's only right

4079
03:12:14,750 --> 03:12:12,359
and just to follow up on what I what I

4080
03:12:18,650 --> 03:12:14,760
said I I didn't mean to be to joke about

4081
03:12:22,010 --> 03:12:18,660
it but in my 20 years at Nasa no one

4082
03:12:25,250 --> 03:12:22,020
either officially or unofficially

4083
03:12:27,349 --> 03:12:25,260
in my recollection have ever discussed

4084
03:12:29,929 --> 03:12:27,359
or briefed us or had any kind of

4085
03:12:33,590 --> 03:12:29,939
discussions about anything that would be

4086
03:12:35,510 --> 03:12:33,600
considered a UAP or UFO or anything like

4087
03:12:37,070 --> 03:12:35,520
that and I'll ask you to stand for one

4088
03:12:38,450 --> 03:12:37,080
second and state your name I'll ask you

4089
03:12:40,250 --> 03:12:38,460
to stand for one second and state your

4090
03:12:41,570 --> 03:12:40,260
name just so everybody know who was

4091
03:12:44,330 --> 03:12:41,580
speaking it's hard to see in the back

4092
03:12:47,210 --> 03:12:44,340
I'm just following up on uh on the

4093
03:12:51,610 --> 03:12:47,220
question about if NASA astronauts ever

4094
03:12:56,269 --> 03:12:51,620
signed an NDA or anything of that

4095
03:12:58,370 --> 03:12:56,279
anything like that in my experience of

4096
03:13:01,370 --> 03:12:58,380
being in the astronaut office for 20

4097
03:13:04,610 --> 03:13:01,380
years there was never any formal or

4098
03:13:09,110 --> 03:13:04,620
informal discussions at all about uaps

4099
03:13:12,710 --> 03:13:09,120
or UFOs or anyone reporting anything

4100
03:13:15,710 --> 03:13:12,720
that would suggest something from you

4101
03:13:18,590 --> 03:13:15,720
know beyond our planet

4102
03:13:20,210 --> 03:13:18,600
thank you very much yes please just want

4103
03:13:22,969 --> 03:13:20,220
to make a quick comment about the the

4104
03:13:26,389 --> 03:13:22,979
culture of science uh in relation to

4105
03:13:28,730 --> 03:13:26,399
this question uh scientists by Nature

4106
03:13:30,830 --> 03:13:28,740
are are at least intellectually sort of

4107
03:13:33,230 --> 03:13:30,840
rebellious it's it's it's in our nature

4108
03:13:34,429 --> 03:13:33,240
to question authority you know uh uh

4109
03:13:35,750 --> 03:13:34,439
that's how you're a good scientist you

4110
03:13:40,429 --> 03:13:35,760
don't just take someone's word for it

4111
03:13:42,110 --> 03:13:40,439
you try to uh discover the truth and for

4112
03:13:43,490 --> 03:13:42,120
that reason uh you know this question

4113
03:13:44,929 --> 03:13:43,500
about what are the science overlords

4114
03:13:47,389 --> 03:13:44,939
hiding that's sort of written in a

4115
03:13:50,570 --> 03:13:47,399
facetious way but I I just want to

4116
03:13:52,429 --> 03:13:50,580
emphasize that uh there's no way that

4117
03:13:54,650 --> 03:13:52,439
all that all scientists could be in on

4118
03:13:56,570 --> 03:13:54,660
on on on on trying to hide something

4119
03:13:58,370 --> 03:13:56,580
because it's just not in our nature if

4120
03:14:00,050 --> 03:13:58,380
somebody told me to try to hide

4121
03:14:03,830 --> 03:14:00,060
something as a scientist that would just

4122
03:14:06,590 --> 03:14:03,840
increase my desire to uh to re to belay

4123
03:14:08,510 --> 03:14:06,600
that order and and to release it and I

4124
03:14:10,010 --> 03:14:08,520
think that's true of of our our

4125
03:14:12,170 --> 03:14:10,020
community in general

4126
03:14:15,769 --> 03:14:12,180
all right thank you so much I am going

4127
03:14:17,990 --> 03:14:15,779
to go on to our third set of questions

4128
03:14:20,450 --> 03:14:18,000
um which is has NASA been tracking

4129
03:14:23,750 --> 03:14:20,460
Earth's atmosphere or are we also

4130
03:14:28,570 --> 03:14:23,760
studying bodies of water for for UAP I

4131
03:14:34,730 --> 03:14:31,670
here's the oceanographer

4132
03:14:37,370 --> 03:14:34,740
um uh so you know my understanding is

4133
03:14:39,050 --> 03:14:37,380
this is a completely independent study

4134
03:14:42,170 --> 03:14:39,060
to assess

4135
03:14:45,130 --> 03:14:42,180
you know what assets what data

4136
03:14:49,190 --> 03:14:45,140
um what science What observations

4137
03:14:51,910 --> 03:14:49,200
platforms NASA has to

4138
03:14:57,590 --> 03:14:51,920
potentially help evaluate and understand

4139
03:14:59,389 --> 03:14:57,600
uh UAP right we have um well NASA has an

4140
03:15:01,969 --> 03:14:59,399
earth science Division and many

4141
03:15:04,210 --> 03:15:01,979
scientists at many centers and many

4142
03:15:07,610 --> 03:15:04,220
academics and other partners out there

4143
03:15:09,469 --> 03:15:07,620
that study the Earth as a system we do

4144
03:15:13,790 --> 03:15:09,479
this from the unique vantage point of

4145
03:15:17,870 --> 03:15:13,800
space and the atmosphere is part of that

4146
03:15:20,150 --> 03:15:17,880
um so uh I think Dr Kirkpatrick stated

4147
03:15:22,389 --> 03:15:20,160
this morning that to his knowledge and I

4148
03:15:25,730 --> 03:15:22,399
think to ours there there isn't anything

4149
03:15:27,410 --> 03:15:25,740
that's been reported below the ocean

4150
03:15:29,990 --> 03:15:27,420
surface

4151
03:15:31,550 --> 03:15:30,000
um you know and so I think

4152
03:15:34,429 --> 03:15:31,560
part of what we've been talking about

4153
03:15:35,809 --> 03:15:34,439
all day is you know what assets are out

4154
03:15:37,550 --> 03:15:35,819
there to actually

4155
03:15:38,269 --> 03:15:37,560
begin to

4156
03:15:40,490 --> 03:15:38,279
um

4157
03:15:42,290 --> 03:15:40,500
identify data that could be useful in

4158
03:15:44,690 --> 03:15:42,300
explaining any of these reports if and

4159
03:15:46,790 --> 03:15:44,700
should they come in so I think that's

4160
03:15:50,269 --> 03:15:46,800
that's probably it unless there's

4161
03:15:54,590 --> 03:15:52,309
all right then thank you

4162
03:15:57,769 --> 03:15:54,600
moving on to our fourth

4163
03:16:00,010 --> 03:15:57,779
General bucket of questions uh what are

4164
03:16:05,990 --> 03:16:00,020
you doing to solve the stigmatization

4165
03:16:11,389 --> 03:16:07,429
and say your name if you wouldn't mind

4166
03:16:13,790 --> 03:16:11,399
first Carlton or FAA

4167
03:16:16,370 --> 03:16:13,800
um I think the fact that NASA has called

4168
03:16:18,530 --> 03:16:16,380
us together here as a panel to look into

4169
03:16:21,469 --> 03:16:18,540
this that NASA is hosting a public

4170
03:16:23,570 --> 03:16:21,479
meeting that we've heard right it

4171
03:16:26,269 --> 03:16:23,580
clearly stated we're here to be

4172
03:16:29,809 --> 03:16:26,279
transparent I think that's the first

4173
03:16:33,290 --> 03:16:29,819
step in trying to really normalize the

4174
03:16:36,349 --> 03:16:33,300
study of uaps and I you know we talked a

4175
03:16:39,170 --> 03:16:36,359
little bit earlier about the reporting

4176
03:16:43,010 --> 03:16:39,180
about how to make it credible and we

4177
03:16:46,550 --> 03:16:43,020
talked also about UAP in one of the

4178
03:16:49,370 --> 03:16:46,560
earlier talks this morning of of the

4179
03:16:51,830 --> 03:16:49,380
definition of the a whether it was Ariel

4180
03:16:54,170 --> 03:16:51,840
or anomalous as the legislation now is

4181
03:16:56,269 --> 03:16:54,180
and really the distinction Beyond UFOs

4182
03:16:58,730 --> 03:16:56,279
right when we're looking at uaps here

4183
03:17:00,769 --> 03:16:58,740
we're Beyond just airplanes we're

4184
03:17:02,170 --> 03:17:00,779
looking at all types of anomalous

4185
03:17:05,389 --> 03:17:02,180
phenomena

4186
03:17:08,030 --> 03:17:05,399
and so that's just a more inclusive term

4187
03:17:12,769 --> 03:17:10,490
yeah still my goal

4188
03:17:14,330 --> 03:17:12,779
um just wanted to emphasize what uh

4189
03:17:15,769 --> 03:17:14,340
Carlin said which is so accurate I

4190
03:17:17,809 --> 03:17:15,779
really consider it quite amazing that

4191
03:17:20,330 --> 03:17:17,819
we're here having this discussion as the

4192
03:17:22,610 --> 03:17:20,340
leadership serves great kudos for this

4193
03:17:24,530 --> 03:17:22,620
and Beyond I think a recommendation that

4194
03:17:27,429 --> 03:17:24,540
I'd like to make is that NASA

4195
03:17:30,469 --> 03:17:27,439
participate in symposia in panels

4196
03:17:33,170 --> 03:17:30,479
sponsor research when you have the NASA

4197
03:17:36,290 --> 03:17:33,180
logo on that sponsored research on the

4198
03:17:38,150 --> 03:17:36,300
discussion it really helps normalize and

4199
03:17:40,370 --> 03:17:38,160
push back against the stigma I think

4200
03:17:42,830 --> 03:17:40,380
NASA can leverage his excellent

4201
03:17:45,110 --> 03:17:42,840
reputation both domestically and abroad

4202
03:17:46,309 --> 03:17:45,120
to help push back on that stigma I think

4203
03:17:47,690 --> 03:17:46,319
it's important to do so not just for

4204
03:17:50,210 --> 03:17:47,700
Science and Discovery but for National

4205
03:17:51,950 --> 03:17:50,220
Security that we've all seen what's

4206
03:17:54,349 --> 03:17:51,960
occurred with balloons from rival

4207
03:17:56,210 --> 03:17:54,359
Nations we don't want this stigma to be

4208
03:17:58,910 --> 03:17:56,220
a vulnerability that rival Nations can

4209
03:18:04,190 --> 03:18:01,610
yes Dan yeah thanks Karen just a few

4210
03:18:07,309 --> 03:18:04,200
additional points um from the agency

4211
03:18:09,889 --> 03:18:07,319
perspective we are of course taking a

4212
03:18:12,349 --> 03:18:09,899
set of actions to effectively normalize

4213
03:18:14,050 --> 03:18:12,359
the study of UAP so that involves

4214
03:18:16,490 --> 03:18:14,060
collaborating across the government

4215
03:18:19,610 --> 03:18:16,500
encouraging an open dialogue and

4216
03:18:21,830 --> 03:18:19,620
promoting rigorous scientific inquiry

4217
03:18:23,650 --> 03:18:21,840
um let me turn to each of those interns

4218
03:18:26,990 --> 03:18:23,660
so in terms of promoting a rigorous

4219
03:18:30,050 --> 03:18:27,000
scientific inquiry the primary way we're

4220
03:18:32,570 --> 03:18:30,060
doing this is by being truly rigorous

4221
03:18:35,469 --> 03:18:32,580
and employing an evidence-based

4222
03:18:39,170 --> 03:18:35,479
methodology in everything that we do

4223
03:18:42,170 --> 03:18:39,180
that is characteristic of scientific

4224
03:18:44,570 --> 03:18:42,180
research it's no accident that the

4225
03:18:47,150 --> 03:18:44,580
people up on this stage are true experts

4226
03:18:50,090 --> 03:18:47,160
in their reflex respective Fields okay

4227
03:18:53,570 --> 03:18:50,100
so that is in turn going to help us to

4228
03:18:55,790 --> 03:18:53,580
legitimize UAP studies encouraging open

4229
03:18:59,150 --> 03:18:55,800
dialogue so by holding public meetings

4230
03:19:02,090 --> 03:18:59,160
such as this one and having open

4231
03:19:04,010 --> 03:19:02,100
conversations about findings then we're

4232
03:19:06,349 --> 03:19:04,020
helping to normalize discussions again

4233
03:19:09,530 --> 03:19:06,359
and that that really goes arm and arm

4234
03:19:11,150 --> 03:19:09,540
with our commitment to openness and

4235
03:19:13,250 --> 03:19:11,160
transparency with the public and then

4236
03:19:14,750 --> 03:19:13,260
finally in terms of collaborating across

4237
03:19:16,730 --> 03:19:14,760
the government we're working very

4238
03:19:19,969 --> 03:19:16,740
closely with other government agencies

4239
03:19:22,849 --> 03:19:19,979
not least Sean's office Aero to broaden

4240
03:19:25,070 --> 03:19:22,859
the scope and the depth of our study and

4241
03:19:27,170 --> 03:19:25,080
I honestly believe that this Collective

4242
03:19:30,230 --> 03:19:27,180
interagency approach will lend

4243
03:19:31,849 --> 03:19:30,240
credibility to the study of uaps and

4244
03:19:33,590 --> 03:19:31,859
it's going to demonstrate the

4245
03:19:35,510 --> 03:19:33,600
seriousness with which we're approaching

4246
03:19:38,450 --> 03:19:35,520
this issue thanks

4247
03:19:40,910 --> 03:19:38,460
well that segues very nicely into what

4248
03:19:43,070 --> 03:19:40,920
our next set of questions are which is

4249
03:19:45,290 --> 03:19:43,080
uh who we are working with so the

4250
03:19:47,570 --> 03:19:45,300
question is who else is NASA currently

4251
03:19:50,150 --> 03:19:47,580
working with or do we want to work with

4252
03:20:01,309 --> 03:19:50,160
to study UAP and is NASA working with

4253
03:20:06,349 --> 03:20:02,630
as

4254
03:20:09,769 --> 03:20:06,359
the questions test to this panel so

4255
03:20:13,190 --> 03:20:09,779
kindly asked us both in what other

4256
03:20:15,050 --> 03:20:13,200
government agencies are collecting data

4257
03:20:16,610 --> 03:20:15,060
what data is available and NASA is

4258
03:20:19,370 --> 03:20:16,620
partnering with them

4259
03:20:23,410 --> 03:20:19,380
um in in many ways as well as National

4260
03:20:26,090 --> 03:20:23,420
NASA has a wide commercial Outreach

4261
03:20:27,429 --> 03:20:26,100
and Partnerships with understanding what

4262
03:20:30,950 --> 03:20:27,439
data is available

4263
03:20:33,410 --> 03:20:30,960
as well as National NASA's founded on on

4264
03:20:35,929 --> 03:20:33,420
well not founded but it the

4265
03:20:37,910 --> 03:20:35,939
core principles of NASA are with

4266
03:20:40,070 --> 03:20:37,920
International Partners so the

4267
03:20:42,170 --> 03:20:40,080
information that our partners are

4268
03:20:44,150 --> 03:20:42,180
gathering is is typically available to

4269
03:20:46,910 --> 03:20:44,160
NASA as well so

4270
03:20:50,570 --> 03:20:46,920
yes on all accounts and I may just

4271
03:20:52,010 --> 03:20:50,580
emphasize an ad that NASA is singular I

4272
03:20:54,170 --> 03:20:52,020
believe among government agencies and

4273
03:20:55,550 --> 03:20:54,180
it's International Outreach again not to

4274
03:20:57,530 --> 03:20:55,560
keep talking about the Artemis Accords

4275
03:20:58,550 --> 03:20:57,540
but you see countries like Saudi Arabia

4276
03:21:00,170 --> 03:20:58,560
that we may not have a great

4277
03:21:02,570 --> 03:21:00,180
relationship with as Government right

4278
03:21:04,550 --> 03:21:02,580
now we have Saudi Arabia and Israel in

4279
03:21:06,710 --> 03:21:04,560
the Accords family so that NASA is

4280
03:21:09,290 --> 03:21:06,720
unique in its scope and ability to reach

4281
03:21:11,389 --> 03:21:09,300
out I also think that we're entering a

4282
03:21:14,090 --> 03:21:11,399
new era of commercial space

4283
03:21:17,090 --> 03:21:14,100
transportation that is going from low

4284
03:21:18,530 --> 03:21:17,100
earth orbit out to Sis lunar's space and

4285
03:21:20,150 --> 03:21:18,540
that is going to be the purview of the

4286
03:21:22,790 --> 03:21:20,160
Department of Commerce which is taking

4287
03:21:25,550 --> 03:21:22,800
over Space Traffic management so I think

4288
03:21:27,349 --> 03:21:25,560
it's very important that NASA work with

4289
03:21:29,090 --> 03:21:27,359
and support Commerce as we go through

4290
03:21:31,429 --> 03:21:29,100
that transition Department of Defense is

4291
03:21:32,809 --> 03:21:31,439
currently responsible for that and I

4292
03:21:35,750 --> 03:21:32,819
think that will help us not only to

4293
03:21:38,030 --> 03:21:35,760
identify potential uaps but to assist in

4294
03:21:40,490 --> 03:21:38,040
preventing contention congestion and

4295
03:21:43,730 --> 03:21:40,500
eventually conflict and I also want to

4296
03:21:45,590 --> 03:21:43,740
note in terms of space debris debris and

4297
03:21:48,230 --> 03:21:45,600
orbit right now I believe represents an

4298
03:21:49,670 --> 03:21:48,240
existential threat to our very society

4299
03:21:52,010 --> 03:21:49,680
that we are getting very close to an

4300
03:21:53,870 --> 03:21:52,020
event that could cause real problems for

4301
03:21:54,650 --> 03:21:53,880
our ability to access satellites and

4302
03:21:56,210 --> 03:21:54,660
that's why I think there's great

4303
03:21:57,590 --> 03:21:56,220
ancillary benefits to the conversation

4304
03:22:00,769 --> 03:21:57,600
we're having today that as we increase

4305
03:22:02,809 --> 03:22:00,779
our capability to monitor orbit for uaps

4306
03:22:04,969 --> 03:22:02,819
that data could also be very relevant as

4307
03:22:07,010 --> 03:22:04,979
we look at nearest objects and other

4308
03:22:09,110 --> 03:22:07,020
threats and again it's just end on near

4309
03:22:11,750 --> 03:22:09,120
Earth objects apothes for example an

4310
03:22:14,210 --> 03:22:11,760
asteroid is going to come so close to

4311
03:22:16,429 --> 03:22:14,220
Earth it will be below geosynchronous

4312
03:22:18,170 --> 03:22:16,439
satellites so any effort to begin to

4313
03:22:19,370 --> 03:22:18,180
catalog and do better in terms of

4314
03:22:20,750 --> 03:22:19,380
understanding that environment is going

4315
03:22:22,670 --> 03:22:20,760
to be terrific and I hope NASA works

4316
03:22:25,730 --> 03:22:22,680
with Commerce and international agencies

4317
03:22:27,710 --> 03:22:25,740
on Apophis and other missions

4318
03:22:30,170 --> 03:22:27,720
I think Federica had something to say

4319
03:22:31,370 --> 03:22:30,180
yeah I just wanted to add that um you

4320
03:22:33,590 --> 03:22:31,380
know a lot of the things that we think

4321
03:22:36,110 --> 03:22:33,600
we might recommend in terms of platforms

4322
03:22:38,330 --> 03:22:36,120
to collect data that would be useful to

4323
03:22:40,309 --> 03:22:38,340
study uavs you know we recommend the

4324
03:22:42,889 --> 03:22:40,319
multi-platform and multi-site that would

4325
03:22:45,230 --> 03:22:42,899
also mean likely ground-based as well as

4326
03:22:47,269 --> 03:22:45,240
space-based facilities

4327
03:22:50,450 --> 03:22:47,279
um and this is being done already in

4328
03:22:52,010 --> 03:22:50,460
astrophysics codes Irving the sky from

4329
03:22:54,490 --> 03:22:52,020
the ground and from space with different

4330
03:22:57,110 --> 03:22:54,500
methodologies and different different

4331
03:22:59,510 --> 03:22:57,120
instruments to get a more comprehensive

4332
03:23:02,750 --> 03:22:59,520
picture of what's normal and then the

4333
03:23:04,910 --> 03:23:02,760
type of phenomenals and um about every

4334
03:23:06,230 --> 03:23:04,920
10 years the scientific the astrophysics

4335
03:23:08,929 --> 03:23:06,240
Community anyways but many other

4336
03:23:12,170 --> 03:23:08,939
branches convener panel of experts to

4337
03:23:14,809 --> 03:23:12,180
see what things can be done to advance

4338
03:23:17,030 --> 03:23:14,819
um the the field in the next decade it's

4339
03:23:18,889 --> 03:23:17,040
called the decada survey for us and one

4340
03:23:21,050 --> 03:23:18,899
of the recommendations this year was

4341
03:23:23,570 --> 03:23:21,060
explicitly for agencies that do us

4342
03:23:27,469 --> 03:23:23,580
through physics to work together so NSF

4343
03:23:29,150 --> 03:23:27,479
doe and NASA to work together share data

4344
03:23:30,410 --> 03:23:29,160
share facilities and instruments so I

4345
03:23:34,309 --> 03:23:30,420
think this is

4346
03:23:36,349 --> 03:23:34,319
um you know there's a lot of fields will

4347
03:23:37,969 --> 03:23:36,359
benefit from this including the UAP

4348
03:23:39,710 --> 03:23:37,979
studies

4349
03:23:43,429 --> 03:23:39,720
oh

4350
03:23:46,190 --> 03:23:43,439
absolutely car window I I'd like to put

4351
03:23:48,650 --> 03:23:46,200
an exclamation point on how well NASA is

4352
03:23:50,269 --> 03:23:48,660
collaborating across the government I

4353
03:23:52,550 --> 03:23:50,279
can I'm from the FAA and I can

4354
03:23:55,790 --> 03:23:52,560
personally attest that you know FAA and

4355
03:23:59,150 --> 03:23:55,800
NASA have a robust uh engagement in

4356
03:24:01,729 --> 03:23:59,160
transferring Research into practice in

4357
03:24:04,729 --> 03:24:01,739
the ATM system I think on the commercial

4358
03:24:07,309 --> 03:24:04,739
space side we work well with NASA and

4359
03:24:09,889 --> 03:24:07,319
and all of our agencies are in the whole

4360
03:24:13,309 --> 03:24:09,899
of government approach supporting Arrow

4361
03:24:15,410 --> 03:24:13,319
specifically on the uip topic and and

4362
03:24:17,630 --> 03:24:15,420
you know it really comes down to good

4363
03:24:20,450 --> 03:24:17,640
government and how we deliver because we

4364
03:24:22,010 --> 03:24:20,460
can each work our own mission space but

4365
03:24:24,050 --> 03:24:22,020
to cover the whole Space we need to

4366
03:24:26,570 --> 03:24:24,060
collaborate together

4367
03:24:29,990 --> 03:24:26,580
and Dan do you put an exclamation point

4368
03:24:31,969 --> 03:24:30,000
on Carlin's exclamation point uh

4369
03:24:33,590 --> 03:24:31,979
so I think it's important to say that

4370
03:24:35,630 --> 03:24:33,600
you know we really do have a good

4371
03:24:38,929 --> 03:24:35,640
relationship with the auto main anomaly

4372
03:24:41,330 --> 03:24:38,939
resolution office era Sean's office

4373
03:24:44,630 --> 03:24:41,340
um and it's previous or predecessor

4374
03:24:46,969 --> 03:24:44,640
organization doap task force and we have

4375
03:24:49,550 --> 03:24:46,979
really benefited from very fruitful

4376
03:24:52,429 --> 03:24:49,560
collaborations among those various

4377
03:24:54,349 --> 03:24:52,439
entities and quite frankly as as a

4378
03:24:56,690 --> 03:24:54,359
taxpayer wanted expect nothing less than

4379
03:24:58,849 --> 03:24:56,700
the government to be working effectively

4380
03:25:00,349 --> 03:24:58,859
across different units together it's

4381
03:25:01,370 --> 03:25:00,359
only right

4382
03:25:04,370 --> 03:25:01,380
um

4383
03:25:07,130 --> 03:25:04,380
that being said it's also important to

4384
03:25:10,309 --> 03:25:07,140
acknowledge what NASA's perspective is

4385
03:25:11,809 --> 03:25:10,319
in this study and to acknowledge that

4386
03:25:13,550 --> 03:25:11,819
you know the the Department of Defense

4387
03:25:16,309 --> 03:25:13,560
the intelligence Community have have

4388
03:25:18,889 --> 03:25:16,319
massively different equities about the

4389
03:25:20,809 --> 03:25:18,899
study of UAP and they have different

4390
03:25:22,550 --> 03:25:20,819
interests ours is a purely scientific

4391
03:25:24,830 --> 03:25:22,560
one so you know we collaborate we

4392
03:25:27,650 --> 03:25:24,840
consult it's a very good relationship

4393
03:25:29,809 --> 03:25:27,660
and I agree wholeheartedly with Carolyn

4394
03:25:32,389 --> 03:25:29,819
that a whole of government approach is

4395
03:25:35,450 --> 03:25:32,399
absolutely the right one to take

4396
03:25:38,570 --> 03:25:35,460
great thank you I will move on to our

4397
03:25:41,389 --> 03:25:38,580
sixth bucket of questions uh which we

4398
03:25:44,210 --> 03:25:41,399
had many on this topic is there evidence

4399
03:25:48,229 --> 03:25:44,220
that UAP were created from non-human

4400
03:25:51,950 --> 03:25:49,670
yes please

4401
03:25:54,290 --> 03:25:51,960
I will take this one

4402
03:25:58,190 --> 03:25:54,300
um first and foremost We Are Scientists

4403
03:26:01,250 --> 03:25:58,200
and we follow the scientific process and

4404
03:26:04,190 --> 03:26:01,260
um I hope that the Gathering here today

4405
03:26:07,429 --> 03:26:04,200
uh showed a little bit of a glimpse on

4406
03:26:09,410 --> 03:26:07,439
how the scientific process works

4407
03:26:13,070 --> 03:26:09,420
um it's not a question that you can

4408
03:26:16,670 --> 03:26:13,080
answer very quickly with yes or no

4409
03:26:19,130 --> 03:26:16,680
um and uh we follow the data right so

4410
03:26:22,130 --> 03:26:19,140
um as scientists we follow the data we

4411
03:26:24,710 --> 03:26:22,140
formulate hypotheses we test theories we

4412
03:26:27,229 --> 03:26:24,720
follow the scientific process the role

4413
03:26:31,070 --> 03:26:27,239
of this panel has been to create a road

4414
03:26:33,290 --> 03:26:31,080
map and a framework for how all

4415
03:26:36,830 --> 03:26:33,300
scientists that are interested in this

4416
03:26:39,769 --> 03:26:36,840
phenomenon can further study can further

4417
03:26:43,250 --> 03:26:39,779
collect data can further formulate

4418
03:26:46,010 --> 03:26:43,260
experiments or again hypotheses can test

4419
03:26:48,889 --> 03:26:46,020
different methods maybe even innovate on

4420
03:26:51,650 --> 03:26:48,899
the methodology side of things come up

4421
03:26:53,809 --> 03:26:51,660
with new methods for how we can do

4422
03:26:55,670 --> 03:26:53,819
basically science but not just any kind

4423
03:26:59,090 --> 03:26:55,680
of science but the science of Discovery

4424
03:27:02,990 --> 03:26:59,100
and exploration which is basically in

4425
03:27:05,990 --> 03:27:03,000
the spirit of NASA so just like Carl

4426
03:27:08,469 --> 03:27:06,000
Sagan I was saying extraordinary claims

4427
03:27:11,150 --> 03:27:08,479
required extraordinary evidence

4428
03:27:15,110 --> 03:27:11,160
we cannot make that kind of

4429
03:27:17,269 --> 03:27:15,120
extraordinary claims at all for any kind

4430
03:27:20,210 --> 03:27:17,279
of big subjects in science whether it's

4431
03:27:23,210 --> 03:27:20,220
uaps whether it's biosignatures whether

4432
03:27:25,250 --> 03:27:23,220
it's techno signatures this question of

4433
03:27:26,990 --> 03:27:25,260
whether we are alone in the universe is

4434
03:27:30,110 --> 03:27:27,000
probably one of the largest questions

4435
03:27:32,870 --> 03:27:30,120
that we've had in our history of Science

4436
03:27:35,510 --> 03:27:32,880
in our history of humanity and it's not

4437
03:27:38,290 --> 03:27:35,520
one that we can take lightly and that's

4438
03:27:40,550 --> 03:27:38,300
why we need so many scientists and

4439
03:27:43,130 --> 03:27:40,560
multi-disciplinary and interdisciplinary

4440
03:27:44,530 --> 03:27:43,140
teams to work together and many

4441
03:27:48,769 --> 03:27:44,540
organizations

4442
03:27:52,070 --> 03:27:48,779
so it's a process it's a roadmap and we

4443
03:27:54,590 --> 03:27:52,080
work collectively on this and we hope

4444
03:27:56,630 --> 03:27:54,600
that within our lifetime we will be able

4445
03:27:59,269 --> 03:27:56,640
to answer this big question of whether

4446
03:28:01,550 --> 03:27:59,279
we are alone or not and also to better

4447
03:28:03,889 --> 03:28:01,560
characterize this phenomenon which is

4448
03:28:06,650 --> 03:28:03,899
uaps

4449
03:28:08,990 --> 03:28:06,660
I want to supplement that excellent

4450
03:28:10,910 --> 03:28:09,000
answer by noting that we have not seen

4451
03:28:13,490 --> 03:28:10,920
the extraordinary evidence

4452
03:28:16,610 --> 03:28:13,500
that I mean in a sense to give you know

4453
03:28:19,670 --> 03:28:16,620
to make the claim that we see something

4454
03:28:22,790 --> 03:28:19,680
that is evidence of

4455
03:28:24,650 --> 03:28:22,800
you know uh non-human intelligence it

4456
03:28:25,790 --> 03:28:24,660
would be it would require extraordinary

4457
03:28:28,309 --> 03:28:25,800
evidence

4458
03:28:31,729 --> 03:28:28,319
and we have not seen that I think that's

4459
03:28:37,309 --> 03:28:35,030
all right then I will move on to our

4460
03:28:39,710 --> 03:28:37,319
seventh set of questions we received

4461
03:28:43,670 --> 03:28:39,720
many questions about the budget that is

4462
03:28:46,130 --> 03:28:43,680
being uh dedicated to this uh how large

4463
03:28:48,050 --> 03:28:46,140
of a budget will NASA allocate how large

4464
03:28:50,210 --> 03:28:48,060
of a budget is NASA allocating and how

4465
03:28:52,910 --> 03:28:50,220
large of a budget will NASA allocate

4466
03:28:55,670 --> 03:28:52,920
towards this the study of UAP is Dan

4467
03:28:57,410 --> 03:28:55,680
yeah that's a darn question so there are

4468
03:28:59,870 --> 03:28:57,420
two separate questions in there which is

4469
03:29:00,590 --> 03:28:59,880
what is the budget for this group this

4470
03:29:03,650 --> 03:29:00,600
team

4471
03:29:05,630 --> 03:29:03,660
and what is the budget going forward I

4472
03:29:07,550 --> 03:29:05,640
think now the

4473
03:29:10,250 --> 03:29:07,560
independent study team is is very

4474
03:29:11,990 --> 03:29:10,260
consistent with any other of our

4475
03:29:13,670 --> 03:29:12,000
external review groups that we bring

4476
03:29:14,990 --> 03:29:13,680
into the science mission directorate on

4477
03:29:18,110 --> 03:29:15,000
an annual basis so you know we have

4478
03:29:19,849 --> 03:29:18,120
maybe 100 200 such groups entirely

4479
03:29:21,830 --> 03:29:19,859
consistent with that

4480
03:29:24,349 --> 03:29:21,840
also important to say going forward now

4481
03:29:26,750 --> 03:29:24,359
that NASA has not established a program

4482
03:29:28,610 --> 03:29:26,760
relative to UAP

4483
03:29:30,950 --> 03:29:28,620
and as a result there's no Associated

4484
03:29:33,290 --> 03:29:30,960
programmatic funding but this is how

4485
03:29:37,490 --> 03:29:33,300
NASA Works Federal budgeting is is a

4486
03:29:39,950 --> 03:29:37,500
complex uh journey of course and the way

4487
03:29:41,929 --> 03:29:39,960
NASA particularly NASA science likes to

4488
03:29:44,870 --> 03:29:41,939
work is we anticipate and weight

4489
03:29:47,389 --> 03:29:44,880
recommendations from independent groups

4490
03:29:49,370 --> 03:29:47,399
such as this one and we need to wait on

4491
03:29:51,530 --> 03:29:49,380
Final recommendations and and then we'll

4492
03:29:53,750 --> 03:29:51,540
make an assessment so too early to say

4493
03:29:55,910 --> 03:29:53,760
but of course that's all couch in the

4494
03:29:57,229 --> 03:29:55,920
fact that Federal budgeting is a very

4495
03:30:00,050 --> 03:29:57,239
complex process and we will always

4496
03:30:05,809 --> 03:30:03,650
all right we're making good time we have

4497
03:30:08,710 --> 03:30:05,819
uh one more question that that

4498
03:30:12,650 --> 03:30:08,720
accomplished many of the ones we got

4499
03:30:15,290 --> 03:30:12,660
which is has NASA encountered any aliens

4500
03:30:17,269 --> 03:30:15,300
or extraterrestrial life what happens if

4501
03:30:19,790 --> 03:30:17,279
the public comes across extraterrestrial

4502
03:30:21,710 --> 03:30:19,800
life what would NASA do if

4503
03:30:23,389 --> 03:30:21,720
extraterrestrial life was discovered

4504
03:30:25,010 --> 03:30:23,399
what would NASA study or do if

4505
03:30:26,150 --> 03:30:25,020
extraterrestrial life was

4506
03:30:27,469 --> 03:30:26,160
now

4507
03:30:29,750 --> 03:30:27,479
I I think it's worth making a

4508
03:30:31,729 --> 03:30:29,760
distinction that they're when we talk

4509
03:30:33,710 --> 03:30:31,739
about extraterrestrial life we do have a

4510
03:30:35,929 --> 03:30:33,720
study within NASA of astrobiology which

4511
03:30:37,370 --> 03:30:35,939
is not intelligent life necessarily and

4512
03:30:39,410 --> 03:30:37,380
so I invite you as you answer this

4513
03:30:41,450 --> 03:30:39,420
question to make clear the distinctions

4514
03:30:43,929 --> 03:30:41,460
as you are talking

4515
03:30:48,170 --> 03:30:43,939
um uh in terms of

4516
03:30:49,309 --> 03:30:48,180
uaps as well as any astrobiology work

4517
03:30:51,830 --> 03:30:49,319
that we do

4518
03:30:55,910 --> 03:30:51,840
I would start by saying one of NASA's

4519
03:31:00,469 --> 03:30:55,920
big questions is is there life out there

4520
03:31:02,750 --> 03:31:00,479
right and a lot of what NASA is doing

4521
03:31:06,349 --> 03:31:02,760
in its exploration of the solar system

4522
03:31:08,030 --> 03:31:06,359
and beyond is focused on

4523
03:31:09,950 --> 03:31:08,040
searching for life in any form

4524
03:31:12,410 --> 03:31:09,960
extraterrestrial life

4525
03:31:13,370 --> 03:31:12,420
I think one of the things we have

4526
03:31:15,950 --> 03:31:13,380
learned

4527
03:31:17,389 --> 03:31:15,960
in the past 20 years is planets are

4528
03:31:19,790 --> 03:31:17,399
common we knew of course about the

4529
03:31:22,070 --> 03:31:19,800
planets in our solar system but we now

4530
03:31:24,710 --> 03:31:22,080
know there are lots of planets out there

4531
03:31:26,450 --> 03:31:24,720
so there are lots of potential

4532
03:31:29,690 --> 03:31:26,460
environments for life

4533
03:31:32,990 --> 03:31:29,700
and I think one of the most fascinating

4534
03:31:34,190 --> 03:31:33,000
questions is do any of those planets

4535
03:31:37,190 --> 03:31:34,200
host life

4536
03:31:39,710 --> 03:31:37,200
and that's uh something that NASA is

4537
03:31:40,790 --> 03:31:39,720
trying to address in a host of different

4538
03:31:45,170 --> 03:31:40,800
ways

4539
03:31:47,990 --> 03:31:45,180
whether it's probes that are landing on

4540
03:31:50,090 --> 03:31:48,000
planets or designing missions that will

4541
03:31:51,469 --> 03:31:50,100
look for signatures of life around other

4542
03:31:53,870 --> 03:31:51,479
planets so

4543
03:31:55,490 --> 03:31:53,880
the search for life is a really

4544
03:31:57,769 --> 03:31:55,500
important theme

4545
03:32:00,170 --> 03:31:57,779
we haven't found life beyond Earth yet

4546
03:32:01,849 --> 03:32:00,180
right I mean let's be clear about this

4547
03:32:04,729 --> 03:32:01,859
we haven't found it yet

4548
03:32:07,010 --> 03:32:04,739
but we're looking and we're looking for

4549
03:32:07,790 --> 03:32:07,020
it in lots of different ways and you

4550
03:32:10,670 --> 03:32:07,800
know

4551
03:32:13,729 --> 03:32:10,680
David was discussing techno signatures

4552
03:32:15,950 --> 03:32:13,739
as one way that we can work both within

4553
03:32:17,929 --> 03:32:15,960
our solar system and beyond and there's

4554
03:32:20,450 --> 03:32:17,939
so there's a lot a lot of different

4555
03:32:21,490 --> 03:32:20,460
elements I think of this potential

4556
03:32:23,330 --> 03:32:21,500
search

4557
03:32:26,510 --> 03:32:23,340
and

4558
03:32:28,729 --> 03:32:26,520
um you know just to go back to

4559
03:32:31,309 --> 03:32:28,739
something sort of those phrase in an

4560
03:32:34,429 --> 03:32:31,319
earlier question you know is NASA hiding

4561
03:32:36,950 --> 03:32:34,439
anything about this no this is actually

4562
03:32:38,510 --> 03:32:36,960
what you know answering this question is

4563
03:32:41,570 --> 03:32:38,520
one of the things that NASA's and

4564
03:32:43,190 --> 03:32:41,580
agencies is excited about it's what's

4565
03:32:46,849 --> 03:32:43,200
something that lots of scientists

4566
03:32:50,210 --> 03:32:46,859
working with NASA are excited about is

4567
03:32:53,090 --> 03:32:50,220
is this question of uh is there life out

4568
03:32:54,650 --> 03:32:53,100
there you know and I think one of the

4569
03:32:57,590 --> 03:32:54,660
things that

4570
03:32:59,389 --> 03:32:57,600
makes this question of are we alone such

4571
03:33:01,309 --> 03:32:59,399
a central question

4572
03:33:03,170 --> 03:33:01,319
not just to the scientific Community

4573
03:33:04,450 --> 03:33:03,180
it's a central question I think for the

4574
03:33:07,309 --> 03:33:04,460
public

4575
03:33:10,610 --> 03:33:07,319
I suspect there are more people watching

4576
03:33:13,729 --> 03:33:10,620
this than the typical episode of NASA TV

4577
03:33:16,550 --> 03:33:13,739
right and this is something where we

4578
03:33:18,349 --> 03:33:16,560
will have me you know media coming to

4579
03:33:20,570 --> 03:33:18,359
the press conference

4580
03:33:23,510 --> 03:33:20,580
because these questions touch on

4581
03:33:26,090 --> 03:33:23,520
something that I think is really a deep

4582
03:33:33,830 --> 03:33:26,100
question for Humanity

4583
03:33:39,229 --> 03:33:36,950
yeah it's just a kind of echo what David

4584
03:33:41,510 --> 03:33:39,239
said a bit I mean obviously this is

4585
03:33:43,309 --> 03:33:41,520
something uh we think a lot about in

4586
03:33:44,570 --> 03:33:43,319
astrobiology what you know what if we

4587
03:33:48,410 --> 03:33:44,580
succeed

4588
03:33:50,750 --> 03:33:48,420
um and uh you know we are very driven to

4589
03:33:53,570 --> 03:33:50,760
try to find uh real evidence of

4590
03:33:56,090 --> 03:33:53,580
extraterrestrial life and

4591
03:33:59,330 --> 03:33:56,100
um we would be highly driven to share

4592
03:34:00,889 --> 03:33:59,340
that if we found it because everyone

4593
03:34:03,170 --> 03:34:00,899
wants to show that they've been able to

4594
03:34:05,809 --> 03:34:03,180
succeed in what they're trying to do and

4595
03:34:08,210 --> 03:34:05,819
and you know one perhaps illustrative

4596
03:34:10,309 --> 03:34:08,220
example is to think about what happened

4597
03:34:11,750 --> 03:34:10,319
when we came close when NASA thought

4598
03:34:14,330 --> 03:34:11,760
maybe they had discovered

4599
03:34:16,130 --> 03:34:14,340
extraterrestrial life and and

4600
03:34:19,490 --> 03:34:16,140
um a big event actually in the history

4601
03:34:21,530 --> 03:34:19,500
of astrobiology was in in the 1990s when

4602
03:34:23,269 --> 03:34:21,540
some scientists had thought that they

4603
03:34:25,790 --> 03:34:23,279
had discovered fossils in a meteorite

4604
03:34:27,410 --> 03:34:25,800
that came from Mars

4605
03:34:29,870 --> 03:34:27,420
um and

4606
03:34:31,429 --> 03:34:29,880
what happens is you don't announce it

4607
03:34:32,570 --> 03:34:31,439
immediately you make sure that you try

4608
03:34:33,710 --> 03:34:32,580
to make sure you're right because you

4609
03:34:35,150 --> 03:34:33,720
don't also don't want to have false

4610
03:34:36,590 --> 03:34:35,160
alarms and announce something where and

4611
03:34:38,690 --> 03:34:36,600
then you go oops sorry we were wrong

4612
03:34:41,330 --> 03:34:38,700
that was a mistaken analysis but what

4613
03:34:43,610 --> 03:34:41,340
happened was when the when

4614
03:34:44,929 --> 03:34:43,620
the scientists were sure they were right

4615
03:34:46,849 --> 03:34:44,939
then

4616
03:34:48,530 --> 03:34:46,859
um there was a big

4617
03:34:50,630 --> 03:34:48,540
um in fact presidential press conference

4618
03:34:53,510 --> 03:34:50,640
with President Clinton and NASA and it

4619
03:34:55,429 --> 03:34:53,520
was a big Public Announcement and

4620
03:34:57,290 --> 03:34:55,439
um that's what would happen if we

4621
03:34:59,330 --> 03:34:57,300
discovered something we would try to

4622
03:35:01,910 --> 03:34:59,340
make sure we were right and then we

4623
03:35:03,769 --> 03:35:01,920
would very proudly and loudly let the

4624
03:35:05,269 --> 03:35:03,779
public know about it

4625
03:35:07,490 --> 03:35:05,279
just one minute left so I'll let you

4626
03:35:09,590 --> 03:35:07,500
finish up yeah thank you um the only

4627
03:35:11,330 --> 03:35:09,600
thing I wanted to add I wouldn't at all

4628
03:35:14,389 --> 03:35:11,340
liken it to

4629
03:35:16,910 --> 03:35:14,399
um alien or extraterrestrial life but in

4630
03:35:19,490 --> 03:35:16,920
astrobiology and exobiology you know

4631
03:35:22,610 --> 03:35:19,500
there is the exploration of our planet

4632
03:35:24,469 --> 03:35:22,620
as an analog for what might be found

4633
03:35:26,450 --> 03:35:24,479
on other worlds

4634
03:35:28,729 --> 03:35:26,460
um you know and what what is extreme

4635
03:35:30,950 --> 03:35:28,739
cold what is extreme heat

4636
03:35:32,809 --> 03:35:30,960
um a volcano A black smoker at the

4637
03:35:34,790 --> 03:35:32,819
bottom of the ocean what lives there and

4638
03:35:36,889 --> 03:35:34,800
how is that even possible and things we

4639
03:35:39,110 --> 03:35:36,899
still discover throughout our ocean

4640
03:35:40,490 --> 03:35:39,120
might look alien to a lot of people

4641
03:35:43,010 --> 03:35:40,500
right

4642
03:35:45,050 --> 03:35:43,020
um and we keep discovering new species

4643
03:35:47,929 --> 03:35:45,060
of different things whether they be

4644
03:35:51,469 --> 03:35:47,939
microbes or algae or you know

4645
03:35:54,110 --> 03:35:51,479
charismatic megafauna whatever they are

4646
03:35:56,330 --> 03:35:54,120
um but there are synergies I know there

4647
03:35:58,070 --> 03:35:56,340
was an initiative years ago at Nasa

4648
03:36:01,309 --> 03:35:58,080
called oceans across the solar system

4649
03:36:03,290 --> 03:36:01,319
and the idea was could our own Earth's

4650
03:36:04,969 --> 03:36:03,300
ocean be used in the life within it as

4651
03:36:07,130 --> 03:36:04,979
an analog for what might be discovered

4652
03:36:09,229 --> 03:36:07,140
elsewhere so I think that's an example

4653
03:36:11,150 --> 03:36:09,239
of a potential Synergy of

4654
03:36:14,210 --> 03:36:11,160
interdisciplinary science research

4655
03:36:15,650 --> 03:36:14,220
observations Etc collection of data and

4656
03:36:17,450 --> 03:36:15,660
information gathering that could be

4657
03:36:19,309 --> 03:36:17,460
useful in the future

4658
03:36:30,170 --> 03:36:19,319
thank you all so much I will hand it

4659
03:36:35,330 --> 03:36:32,929
so let me also just answer the one other

4660
03:36:37,729 --> 03:36:35,340
piece of that question was what do you

4661
03:36:39,110 --> 03:36:37,739
do if you see something surprising wait

4662
03:36:41,750 --> 03:36:39,120
where do you report

4663
03:36:43,910 --> 03:36:41,760
and this is something where just to come

4664
03:36:48,229 --> 03:36:43,920
back to something I mentioned my opening

4665
03:36:49,969 --> 03:36:48,239
remarks the aaro is the our lead Agency

4666
03:36:52,130 --> 03:36:49,979
for uaps

4667
03:36:55,190 --> 03:36:52,140
and while we've talked about origin you

4668
03:36:57,769 --> 03:36:55,200
know life in this context

4669
03:37:00,170 --> 03:36:57,779
most uaps

4670
03:37:02,150 --> 03:37:00,180
I think when a woman looks at the data

4671
03:37:04,250 --> 03:37:02,160
in more detail are going to turn out to

4672
03:37:06,530 --> 03:37:04,260
be phenomenally understand we saw this

4673
03:37:10,550 --> 03:37:06,540
with some of the balloons or or

4674
03:37:13,790 --> 03:37:10,560
commercial Jets we saw those examples

4675
03:37:17,150 --> 03:37:13,800
some uaps and we saw this with the

4676
03:37:19,370 --> 03:37:17,160
Chinese balloon that flew over is

4677
03:37:20,929 --> 03:37:19,380
something an issue sometimes of National

4678
03:37:22,969 --> 03:37:20,939
Security

4679
03:37:24,110 --> 03:37:22,979
so we actually do want to encourage

4680
03:37:25,910 --> 03:37:24,120
people

4681
03:37:27,950 --> 03:37:25,920
just from that angle

4682
03:37:30,290 --> 03:37:27,960
to report it

4683
03:37:33,050 --> 03:37:30,300
so you know uh

4684
03:37:35,269 --> 03:37:33,060
since uh just before it will transition

4685
03:37:37,490 --> 03:37:35,279
to summary but that's what it is on that

4686
03:37:38,870 --> 03:37:37,500
question that you know to keep in mind

4687
03:37:42,889 --> 03:37:38,880
that

4688
03:37:45,590 --> 03:37:42,899
um you know the aaros role is to be the

4689
03:37:46,610 --> 03:37:45,600
prime source for understanding those

4690
03:37:49,910 --> 03:37:46,620
things

4691
03:37:51,950 --> 03:37:49,920
and what our charge is is to think about

4692
03:37:55,370 --> 03:37:51,960
what's NASA's role

4693
03:37:58,250 --> 03:37:55,380
and I think NASA you know and this is

4694
03:38:00,170 --> 03:37:58,260
something you know we'll con I want to

4695
03:38:02,870 --> 03:38:00,180
now go back to discussion we didn't have

4696
03:38:05,450 --> 03:38:02,880
that much time for it just to come back

4697
03:38:07,670 --> 03:38:05,460
to you know what we each you know what

4698
03:38:09,050 --> 03:38:07,680
we see as NASA's role

4699
03:38:10,849 --> 03:38:09,060
in this

4700
03:38:13,130 --> 03:38:10,859
um I think one world piece we've talked

4701
03:38:16,849 --> 03:38:13,140
about is

4702
03:38:19,070 --> 03:38:16,859
be uh NASA can help remove the stigma

4703
03:38:20,990 --> 03:38:19,080
NASA can draw them more of the

4704
03:38:24,229 --> 03:38:21,000
scientific community in

4705
03:38:27,050 --> 03:38:24,239
and I think what NASA could help do is

4706
03:38:30,349 --> 03:38:27,060
provide standards of high data quality

4707
03:38:32,570 --> 03:38:30,359
I think one of the things that many of

4708
03:38:34,370 --> 03:38:32,580
us who've come you know not looked at

4709
03:38:35,570 --> 03:38:34,380
this before I certainly put myself in

4710
03:38:40,370 --> 03:38:35,580
this group

4711
03:38:43,010 --> 03:38:40,380
was struck by the limited nature of the

4712
03:38:44,750 --> 03:38:43,020
data that many events had uh

4713
03:38:46,670 --> 03:38:44,760
insufficient data

4714
03:38:49,429 --> 03:38:46,680
and that in order to get a better

4715
03:38:51,710 --> 03:38:49,439
understanding we will need to have you

4716
03:38:53,750 --> 03:38:51,720
know high quality data data where we

4717
03:38:56,450 --> 03:38:53,760
understand it's provenance

4718
03:38:59,090 --> 03:38:56,460
data from multiple sensors

4719
03:39:02,510 --> 03:38:59,100
I think one of the things that uh you

4720
03:39:04,849 --> 03:39:02,520
know even from the same sensor as we saw

4721
03:39:07,130 --> 03:39:04,859
you know in Josh's analysis you know

4722
03:39:09,469 --> 03:39:07,140
also the event Sean showed us when you

4723
03:39:12,590 --> 03:39:09,479
can observe event over time

4724
03:39:14,510 --> 03:39:12,600
and get velocity information that gives

4725
03:39:16,070 --> 03:39:14,520
you a lot of additional information so

4726
03:39:17,150 --> 03:39:16,080
we're going to want things with high

4727
03:39:19,010 --> 03:39:17,160
frame rate

4728
03:39:21,229 --> 03:39:19,020
we're going to want things from multiple

4729
03:39:23,990 --> 03:39:21,239
perspectives

4730
03:39:25,550 --> 03:39:24,000
um and uh you know so I I think those

4731
03:39:28,070 --> 03:39:25,560
are all going to be pieces of things

4732
03:39:29,870 --> 03:39:28,080
that we want to think about

4733
03:39:33,469 --> 03:39:29,880
um

4734
03:39:34,849 --> 03:39:33,479
I think this is an opportunity for

4735
03:39:36,490 --> 03:39:34,859
citizen science

4736
03:39:39,590 --> 03:39:36,500
I think if

4737
03:39:41,750 --> 03:39:39,600
we can come up with recommendations in

4738
03:39:43,550 --> 03:39:41,760
our roadmap that point to ways in which

4739
03:39:46,550 --> 03:39:43,560
we could collect it people can collect

4740
03:39:48,950 --> 03:39:46,560
data I remain a big fan of these things

4741
03:39:50,410 --> 03:39:48,960
they do take over our lives too much but

4742
03:39:53,750 --> 03:39:50,420
they are

4743
03:39:55,429 --> 03:39:53,760
fabulous data collectors of and I don't

4744
03:39:58,070 --> 03:39:55,439
know there's something like three four

4745
03:40:02,650 --> 03:39:58,080
billion of them that are on the planet

4746
03:40:06,769 --> 03:40:02,660
and NASA I think has the

4747
03:40:09,410 --> 03:40:06,779
Prestige and visibility to develop an

4748
03:40:13,309 --> 03:40:09,420
app or work with companies to develop

4749
03:40:16,729 --> 03:40:13,319
apps that could collect data in a

4750
03:40:20,269 --> 03:40:16,739
uniform and centralized way

4751
03:40:22,790 --> 03:40:20,279
um that I think will you know most the

4752
03:40:27,710 --> 03:40:22,800
stuff that's collected is going to turn

4753
03:40:29,210 --> 03:40:27,720
out to be commercial planes balloons uh

4754
03:40:30,469 --> 03:40:29,220
when you have multiple cameras you can

4755
03:40:32,389 --> 03:40:30,479
eliminate some of the optical

4756
03:40:34,190 --> 03:40:32,399
limitations of the ghosting and those

4757
03:40:37,570 --> 03:40:34,200
effects

4758
03:40:40,309 --> 03:40:37,580
um some of them will almost certainly be

4759
03:40:44,330 --> 03:40:40,319
novel physical phenomena

4760
03:40:46,130 --> 03:40:44,340
all right I think it is we have learned

4761
03:40:48,769 --> 03:40:46,140
a lot about our planet and how the

4762
03:40:49,550 --> 03:40:48,779
universe works there's a lot we don't

4763
03:40:55,190 --> 03:40:49,560
know

4764
03:40:56,630 --> 03:40:55,200
as scientists what is the most exciting

4765
03:40:58,969 --> 03:40:56,640
thing

4766
03:41:02,630 --> 03:40:58,979
is the surprises

4767
03:41:04,670 --> 03:41:02,640
and I think that there are things that

4768
03:41:06,950 --> 03:41:04,680
continue to surprise us about our own

4769
03:41:09,769 --> 03:41:06,960
Planet there's phenomenon or atmosphere

4770
03:41:12,590 --> 03:41:09,779
in the atmosphere that we probably

4771
03:41:13,790 --> 03:41:12,600
haven't seen yet or perhaps we've seen

4772
03:41:18,170 --> 03:41:13,800
and not

4773
03:41:20,150 --> 03:41:18,180
noticed yet right in this I I think a a

4774
03:41:22,010 --> 03:41:20,160
long history in science when you look

4775
03:41:25,610 --> 03:41:22,020
back and you realize

4776
03:41:28,190 --> 03:41:25,620
that this in Discovery had a

4777
03:41:29,450 --> 03:41:28,200
pre-discovery so people had seen

4778
03:41:32,690 --> 03:41:29,460
something before

4779
03:41:35,330 --> 03:41:32,700
and we're missing it and

4780
03:41:37,849 --> 03:41:35,340
those pre-discoveries were not of note

4781
03:41:40,010 --> 03:41:37,859
because often because

4782
03:41:41,510 --> 03:41:40,020
we had biases against seeing it but it

4783
03:41:42,889 --> 03:41:41,520
wasn't because there was limitations in

4784
03:41:45,349 --> 03:41:42,899
data quality

4785
03:41:48,469 --> 03:41:45,359
and uh

4786
03:41:49,510 --> 03:41:48,479
you know one of the things I was taught

4787
03:41:52,550 --> 03:41:49,520
is

4788
03:41:54,710 --> 03:41:52,560
when you have a question you don't know

4789
03:41:56,450 --> 03:41:54,720
how to answer you start by getting

4790
03:41:59,150 --> 03:41:56,460
better data

4791
03:42:01,969 --> 03:41:59,160
and you know I

4792
03:42:04,790 --> 03:42:01,979
uh were coming you know they get to do

4793
03:42:08,389 --> 03:42:04,800
the summary and as the chair I get to

4794
03:42:09,469 --> 03:42:08,399
you know summarize a conclusion and

4795
03:42:12,590 --> 03:42:09,479
um

4796
03:42:13,790 --> 03:42:12,600
we need better data would be my my

4797
03:42:16,729 --> 03:42:13,800
takeaway

4798
03:42:20,990 --> 03:42:16,739
and we need more uniform data

4799
03:42:26,330 --> 03:42:24,229
we need to be able to understand what's

4800
03:42:29,090 --> 03:42:26,340
in the haystack and it's

4801
03:42:31,570 --> 03:42:29,100
a lot more complicated than a haystack

4802
03:42:34,969 --> 03:42:31,580
in a sense right as you know it's got

4803
03:42:38,690 --> 03:42:34,979
commercial planes it's got you know

4804
03:42:41,090 --> 03:42:38,700
drones and you know I think uh the

4805
03:42:42,410 --> 03:42:41,100
number of drones out there is large and

4806
03:42:44,389 --> 03:42:42,420
growing

4807
03:42:46,429 --> 03:42:44,399
and will be a continual source of

4808
03:42:47,090 --> 03:42:46,439
confusion

4809
03:42:49,550 --> 03:42:47,100
um

4810
03:42:52,010 --> 03:42:49,560
we were charged to think about air

4811
03:42:53,690 --> 03:42:52,020
safety you know understanding and

4812
03:42:55,729 --> 03:42:53,700
characterizing seeing what's going on

4813
03:42:59,450 --> 03:42:55,739
with drones is also I think going to be

4814
03:43:02,450 --> 03:42:59,460
an important air safety issue

4815
03:43:05,750 --> 03:43:02,460
um so we'll need to uh

4816
03:43:07,790 --> 03:43:05,760
you know to understand the unknown or

4817
03:43:10,010 --> 03:43:07,800
start to study the unknown

4818
03:43:13,010 --> 03:43:10,020
another important piece is always going

4819
03:43:15,050 --> 03:43:13,020
to be characterizing the known

4820
03:43:19,070 --> 03:43:15,060
really well

4821
03:43:22,130 --> 03:43:19,080
and um you know this is the part I think

4822
03:43:23,090 --> 03:43:22,140
of a lot of science that seems dry and

4823
03:43:26,929 --> 03:43:23,100
boring

4824
03:43:30,349 --> 03:43:26,939
but it's calibration and understanding

4825
03:43:34,030 --> 03:43:30,359
the events you expect to see

4826
03:43:37,550 --> 03:43:34,040
um you know in thinking about this area

4827
03:43:40,070 --> 03:43:37,560
one of the groups of people that people

4828
03:43:42,110 --> 03:43:40,080
talk to are particle physicists doing

4829
03:43:44,210 --> 03:43:42,120
experiments at CERN

4830
03:43:47,570 --> 03:43:44,220
where they go through the effort of

4831
03:43:48,889 --> 03:43:47,580
finding extremely rare events to find

4832
03:43:51,889 --> 03:43:48,899
new particles

4833
03:43:54,410 --> 03:43:51,899
and in order to do that you need to

4834
03:43:56,450 --> 03:43:54,420
understand the standard predictions well

4835
03:43:57,410 --> 03:43:56,460
so I think another part of the whole

4836
03:44:00,050 --> 03:43:57,420
story

4837
03:44:01,790 --> 03:44:00,060
and I know this is something Aro is

4838
03:44:03,650 --> 03:44:01,800
working hard on in the context of

4839
03:44:06,710 --> 03:44:03,660
military it's like you've got to

4840
03:44:09,910 --> 03:44:06,720
characterize what you the known Things

4841
03:44:13,910 --> 03:44:09,920
Are you know when you've got that

4842
03:44:17,389 --> 03:44:13,920
F-35 flying past a balloon what does it

4843
03:44:21,130 --> 03:44:17,399
see what does it see at Sunset what does

4844
03:44:23,450 --> 03:44:21,140
it see in odd observing angles and that

4845
03:44:26,510 --> 03:44:23,460
characterizing the normal

4846
03:44:29,090 --> 03:44:26,520
is an essential thing to do to

4847
03:44:30,769 --> 03:44:29,100
understand what's out there

4848
03:44:34,370 --> 03:44:30,779
so let me

4849
03:44:36,950 --> 03:44:34,380
conclude the session by thanking the

4850
03:44:38,150 --> 03:44:36,960
panelists it's been a pleasure learning

4851
03:44:41,990 --> 03:44:38,160
from you

4852
03:44:44,630 --> 03:44:42,000
thanking our uh Sean and and our other

4853
03:44:47,030 --> 03:44:44,640
invited speakers and our our that we've

4854
03:44:50,030 --> 03:44:47,040
had we've had for our uh some of our

4855
03:44:51,910 --> 03:44:50,040
data collection sessions we've learned a

4856
03:44:55,309 --> 03:44:51,920
tremendous amount from you

4857
03:44:57,250 --> 03:44:55,319
and also thank the public for their

4858
03:45:00,110 --> 03:44:57,260
engagements I think we were all

4859
03:45:02,030 --> 03:45:00,120
impressed by the the number and level

4860
03:45:03,650 --> 03:45:02,040
and sophistication of the questions

4861
03:45:06,710 --> 03:45:03,660
people sent in

4862
03:45:08,090 --> 03:45:06,720
we try to address as many as the that we

4863
03:45:12,010 --> 03:45:08,100
could in the session

4864
03:45:14,630 --> 03:45:12,020
as you've heard NASA through

4865
03:45:16,269 --> 03:45:14,640
science.nasa.gov will provide there'll

4866
03:45:20,030 --> 03:45:16,279
be some additional answers provided

4867
03:45:26,750 --> 03:45:22,670
actually is a non-nasa employee I'll put

4868
03:45:29,389 --> 03:45:26,760
in a little ad for science.nasa.gov

4869
03:45:31,490 --> 03:45:29,399
NASA does amazing things

4870
03:45:32,929 --> 03:45:31,500
and we're learning amazing things about

4871
03:45:36,050 --> 03:45:32,939
the universe

4872
03:45:37,330 --> 03:45:36,060
and our planet and just encourage you to

4873
03:45:39,590 --> 03:45:37,340
go there

4874
03:45:42,530 --> 03:45:39,600
and uh

4875
03:45:43,490 --> 03:45:42,540
continue to learn and continue to

4876
03:46:01,010 --> 03:45:43,500
explore

4877
03:46:08,269 --> 03:46:04,630
we are going

4878
03:46:11,090 --> 03:46:08,279
the history of this agency is marked

4879
03:46:12,490 --> 03:46:11,100
with broken barriers once viewed as

4880
03:46:16,130 --> 03:46:12,500
impossible